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Oh and to add to that, would scrolls and spellhearts both fall in this same ruling category?

No modifications line like with staves but they are activated with the Cast a Spell action all the same.

So it seems staves are in the clear at least with that modifications line. I double checked with wands and it doesn't have that same line but it does allow you to substitute material components with somatic components naturally.

Ancestral Mind is funny. It technically doesn't directly state that it makes you treat your innate spells as official psychic spells. It does make your innate spells look and act like a psychic spell as much as possible, one-by-one: able to use psychic components, tradition to occult, and uses your psychic spellcasting mod.

It's a stretch but maybe that's the hidden definition of psychic spellcasting we're looking for? Anything occult that uses your psychic spellcasting mod? Eh, I don't know.

Is there another ruling similar to this we can compare it too? Like, is there a mechanic or something that specifically mentions "wizard spellcasting" or "bard spellcasting"?

Ooof, I entirely missed the "you know" part in "You alter some of the standard spell components when casting spells you know from your psychic spellcasting."

So for staves, component substitution should work for sure if "you know" the spell already, as in the spell being in your repertoire? Probably not what you want to use your staves for but it's good to keep in mind.

This is just an aside that Ascalaphus made me realize. I'll be back later to read the rest of the comments more thoroughly. Currently on the go, but thanks so far!

Psychics can alter verbal components into mental components, but only for psychic spells. So if I'm using a staff, I will have to use verbal components, right?

Does this also extend to the substituting material components with somatic components? I can't tell for sure if it's part of that psychic spell limitation or not. That is to say, should I be carrying a component pouch for a Psychic if I plan to use a staff?

Sanityfaerie wrote:
- First, talk with your GM. How many limbs does a plant eidolon have? Like, you can take a primary eidolon attack with trip, and you can add grapple to your eidolon's secondary attack... but how many enemies will that let you grapple before you run out of roots to grapple with and you can't grapple any more? As far as we've been able to determine, it's entirely GM's call, and it does have an impact on how effective a grappler your plant can be.

That's a good tip that didn't occur to me. I'm almost certain my GM would just rule it like the plant was a player character. So I think that's two free hands for manual grapples and then another for the grapple unarmed attack once I get that grab feat?

The plant's main appeal to me was being able to still do all these melee eidolon things but from a safer distance. What's the better way to size up for this though? Through the permanent size up feats or the size up spells like Enlarge and Evolution Surge

On the flipside, the ranged combatant option is nice in that it doesn't need to size up, saving me the feats and/or spells. Also, your right, going ranged wouldn't lock me into primal, so I should really look into the other eidolons a bit more.

I still really like both concepts rather equally. I might just have to choose one and hope to get the opportunity to try the other another time.

After playing a Summoner in a one shot with a Beast Eidolon, I don't think frontline Eidolons are my thing.

So now I'm considering playing either a plant eidolon or a ranged combatant eidolon. With the Plant, the eidolon can more safely hang out behind actual frontliners but still offer tripping, grappling, and occasional flanking. With a Ranged Combatant, the eidolon can only attack but from even further away with no need for the size increasing feats or spells.

I'm torn between the two, but even before we get to that, are these even good ideas to go for? How much am I missing not going for the typical melee frontline Eidolon? I don't hear too much about the Plant Eidolon so I don't know if its reach gimmick is just that, a gimmick. Same thing for Ranged Combatant, and I was looking at it in particular for the Fey Eidolon. I don't know why I'm drawn to all the primal Eidolons.

If it matters, our party hypothetical party comp atm is: Fighter, Champion, Bard, some ranged martial (it's likely between Gunslinger or archer Monk)

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I don't really love the algorithm of:

- You have three focus points, you spend all three.
- You refocus to get back up to 2
- You spend one focus point to go down to 1
- You refocus to get back up to 3.

It just feels inelegant.

Yeah, it feels weird. I don't think I would've read it that way at first if it weren't explained to me beforehand. I'd suppose it would follow every other refocus formula where you use X to recover X, which I've been accidentally doing.

Overall, I just wish there was a middle point between recovering 2 points (limited to Psychic abilities) at 1st level and recovering 3 points (no Psychic ability limit) at 18th level. That is an awkwardly huge gap to me and kinda feels unintended.

Maybe if there was an upgrade to recovering 3 points that's still limited to Psychic abilities somewhere between level 5 (after which your focus pool goes to 3) and 18. Or more simply, the wellspring feat being uniquely available to the Psychic at an earlier level than 18.

breithauptclan wrote:
I think that is still equivalent. Even under this rule you could spend two focus points on Lay on Hands, refocus one point, spend it on an amped cantrip, then refocus for 2 points.

Well, under the playtest rules, couldn't you lock your focus points to 1 if you went to 0 with a non-Psychic ability since you can no longer spend 2 focus points to regain 2? That's significantly worse and why archetype focus spells were completely off the table to me.

Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Up until level 18, psychic is the only class that can actually keep their focus pool topped off at 3, since their refocus lacks the needing to spend 2 focus points to regain 2 focus points verbiage, so even at level 12, they still have a pretty unique spot, and even at 18, you don't actually need Deepest Wellspring as long as you're cool spending 20 minutes to top off instead of 10 (although Deepest Wellspring also makes it easier to dip into archetypes)

I do wonder if Psychics refocusing back up to 3 provided extra time is intended. It makes the 18th level wellspring feat more situational, but the complete lack of refocus progression until then makes a lot more sense in every other way.

This is all really wild. I think I've been going off of the playtest refocus rules this entire time, apparently never noticing it changed on official release. This is how it is in the playtest--

If you’ve spent at least 2 Focus Points and spent Focus Points only to amp psi cantrips since the last time you Refocused, you regain 2 Focus Points when you Refocus. Otherwise, you regain 1 Focus Point.

That's a lot more limiting than--

If you've spent Focus Points only to amp psi cantrips or fuel psychic abilities since the last time you Refocused, you regain 2 Focus Points when you Refocus, up to your maximum of 2. If you've spent Focus Points on focus spells or abilities other than those from the psychic class (for instance, to cast a focus spell you gained from an archetype), you regain only 1 Focus Point.

I guess the official Psychic refocus rules is much better than I thought then, although I guess there's no consensus on how it actually works? I don't know, I think I'm still in shock that I've been playing it wrong for all 9 levels and I may or may not have been missing out on focus points...

breithauptclan wrote:

It doesn't put you at one focus point for the rest of the day.

So if you exhaust your focus pool on Lay on Hands you got from Blessed One dedication, you can refocus to get one focus point back. Then cast amped whatever to put yourself back down to zero focus points - which also qualifies you for the Refocus activity again (you have spent focus points since your last Refocus). Then since you have only used your focus pool to cast Psychic spells, you get to Refocus for two points.

Wait a sec, does that actually work like that? You can refocus all the way back to 3 focus points that way, which isn't normal.

I think it's tough to be jealous of the Oracle since their curse advancement mechanic acts as an additional limiter to their focus pool. So I think that makes it pretty fair for them to get those boosts for free and even a level earlier. Also, on one hand, I'd bet the Oracle is really missing out on the free refocus 2 as early as level 1.

Just the way the Psychic's refocus stays fixed at 1st level and then all the way at 18th level is when it gets an upgrade option surprised me. Sure you save a feat, but like Squiggit says "I don't think the level 12 feat they save really makes up for it."

At some point, I even started to think I missed a feat that at least removed the Psychic's refocus limit. Not as good of an upgrade as a focus feat, but it's better than nothing.

Psychics can refocus for 2 from the get-go, provided you only use psychic abilities. That's great, but then this recovery remains static until 18th level with their wellspring feat?

Weird since that's the same level all other wellspring feats are available so Psychics don't even get it earlier despite focus points being their forte. Even weirder imo is that at level 12, other casters can get their focus feats to refocus for 2. This refocus for 2 is also functionally better since Psychics can only refocus 2 if they only use psychic abilities. I don't think Psychics have anything to remove that limit either outside the wellspring feat.

I'm enjoying my first Psychic right now (fresh 9th level), and I think it's the best low level caster experience I've had. Sure you have less spell slots, but the extra focus points and ways to use it really made up for it. Looking ahead though, I guess I feel a little jealous every other caster will soon get the option to catch up on focus recovery with a single feat, while the spell slot gap only grows wider with each level.

I might just be underestimating Psychics at the mid levels, but I guess I'll find out soon enough.