What are your go-to divine blasts at higher ranks?
You've mentioned Spirit Blast, which is indeed good single target damage at rank 6 (and only rank 6 IMO, since it is superseded by Execute immediately at rank 7). But this spell alone isn't enough to be a good blaster, right? You need to be able to target more saves
Contrary to popular assumption, you don't need to target all three saves to blast effectively, but as it happens divine immolation is effective if you want a Reflex save, and while not strictly speaking a blast spell, blessed boundary is coconuts. For Fort there's also wails of the damned, an extremely potent blasting and debuff spell all in one thanks to its drained condition, and for Will, I'll be honest, the blasting options aren't amazing, even if there's powerful utility like roaring applause and canticle of everlasting grief.
Most, if not all groups, get a +1 status bonus to attack almost from the get-go.
I find it a bit strange that the self-professed cure to "theorycrafting, white room maths and a fair bit of schrödinger's animist" is itself white-room theorycrafting that presupposes every party has a Bard or a Marshal. Just to point out a few other bits that really do not appear informed by experience, or at the very least do not correspond at all to my own:
All of which is to say: if you want to try a gish Animist, do give embodiment of battle a try if you want. Don't expect to consistently outdamage a Barbarian blow-for-blow (and don't base your standards of balance around that either), but expect to be able to Strike capably if you build your Animist decently, and break expectations for what a full caster is allowed to do if you build the right options.
I'm going to play this thing. I know how to optimize. I'll see what this animist class looks like built in an optimal fashion surrounded by optimally built classes. Then I'll see what I think of its power level.I also strongly suggest trying to play it as well. It's one of those classes you really need to experience in actual play to fully understand its limitations, constraints and strengths.
I haven't seen what Teridax has seen at my table. You honestly can not outperform the specialists in my opinion. I'm guessing this is more system mastery related.
Some observations from actual play, low to high level:
- Embodiment of Battle will see less and less use as you level up, but it's certainly nice at the lower levels. You can eventually pick up the good reactions and that status bonus elsewhere without nerfing your spellcasting, which will obviously increase in importance as you level up.
- Feel free to try, but actually I advice against trying to specialize too much, like going all in on spellcasting or heavens forbid, striking.
I personally never could get their meta-magic feats and channeler's stance to work decently. The action economy simply isn't there and Earth Bile's range is 30 feet, so you need to be close to the action to use that optimally. Or any of the good vessel spells really.
For consideration, here is a generalist I played from low to high level (FA game, Liturgist):
- Only took 3 Animist feats: Embodiment of the Balance, Apparition's Enhancement and Apparition's Quickening. There is room to take more Animist feats lvl 14+, but, eh, I felt I could do more with dedication feats.
- Now, I went with reach melee (guisarme) and heavy armor, but you have many options. The key features I wanted to hit were maneuvering spell from Sixth Pillar and action compress a strike with a sustain.
I went with Champion and Ranger picking up Champion's Reaction and Skirmish Strike as they fit the character the best, but like I said, many options...
That's why I said I would update. Character is made. I'm going to play it this week on our game day.
I set my current plan in place. The campaign is level 13. I'll update as I go.
The notion that divine is bad for blasting dates back from before the remaster, and is since outdated: the low-rank options may still not be great, but you get plenty of choice at higher levels, and some genuinely top-tier options that are unlikely to hit resistances or immunities.What are your go-to divine blasts at higher ranks?
You've mentioned Spirit Blast, which is indeed good single target damage at rank 6 (and only rank 6 IMO, since it is superseded by Execute immediately at rank 7). But this spell alone isn't enough to be a good blaster, right? You need to be able to target more saves, which I feel is more much important than evading resistances/immunities, especially since high-Fort monsters become more prevalent at higher levels. What blasting spells do you use to cover other saves or AoE? (Also, I feel that single target spells barely count as blasting in the first place, otherwise you could say that the best blaster is a Magus or a Barbarian . When it comes to caster damage, AoE is where they shine.)
I know Divine Wrath gets a lot of praise, and it's definitely a good spell, but in my experience it's not a great blast. In practice, in the situations where I wanted to cast a big AoE spell with no friendly fire (i.e. vs lots of mainly lower level enemies), I would much rather do double damage on a crit fail rather than inflict Slowed 1 and Sickened 2. Not being able to inflict double damage greatly tamps down on the amount of damage you're putting out with Divine Wrath. Also spells that do d10 per rank just feel worse than spells that do 2d6 per rank, not just because it's less damage but also that you're much more likely to get screwed by variance (I rolled a 5 on a 4d10 last week. Rank 4 Fireball would never.) And again, it targets Fortitude, and I consider being able to target multiple defenses to be the most important part of blasting. The primal list has enough spells to get around resistance to fire or electricity or whatever, but I can't find a good way to...
Lower level divine doesn't have much.
Divine Immolation is ok now.
Divine Wrath is ok.
Eclipse Burst is very good.
Sunburst is ok, but great against undead enemies.
Holy ray can be decent single target against outsiders.
Really, the animist is better off focusing apparition spells on good blasting. Then using divine spells for utility, healing, and the like.
The cleric and oracle get by being good blasters by accessing domains to pick up a few good blasting spells and the oracle has a few mysteries that give a few blasting spells, has Divine Access for free at level 11, then gets the old Cross-blooded evolution the sorc had if you want some other blasting spell. So they can be very good at it along with blasting focus spells.
The animist needs those apparition spells and Earth's bile. It's more versatile a blaster than the cleric, but probably less so than the oracle.
One thing I'm mixed over: how much do I put into strength? Grappling requires strength, so does tripping. Forest's Heart has finesse and I could focus on using the extra attack from 30 feet while providing the Gang up and gaining the gang up bonus all around. I get flanking 30 feet away which is pretty sweet.
I could even grab sneak attacker off the rogue archetype for extra damage from 30 feet away which I think I will do.
I think I might ignore the grapple, grab the Sneak Attacker, and just get the extra d6 on every attack I have off-guard on.
I wonder if you picked up the magus archetype, got spell strike, then the feat that gave you spellstrike through your unarmed attacks would be fun to use. Hmm. 30 foot away melee spellstrike with a finesse weapon.
I find it a bit strange that the self-professed cure to "theorycrafting, white room maths and a fair bit of schrödinger's animist" is itself white-room theorycrafting that presupposes every party has a Bard or a Marshal.
Well, it's just been my experience, because it's very effective for little cost.
But you might have noticed that in my comparison I took care of using the unbuffed attack bonus (and take the levels where Embodiment of battle shines the brightest), in order to be as fair as possible.
Just to point out a few other bits that really do not appear informed by experience, or at the very least do not correspond at all to my own:
The Animist being able to benefit significantly from a Strength apex item as well as a Wisdom one and being capable at both gish and blast builds either way is somehow presented as a downside.
The downside is that you cannot have two Apex items. So despite having a very flexible chassis, you'll have to choose at around level 17 whether you want to be better at casting and worse at fighting or the other way round.
It's great to have this choice - but it's also wrong to say you can be BOTH a great blaster and a great fighter, even if you change your apparitions and feats, just because your stuff and attributes don't change.
Point #3 appears to completely forget that Cycle of Souls exists, and that if we're discounting that kind of feat, most melee martials using a stance would have to also spend an action entering said stance, and then an action moving into range before Striking.
Cycle of souls is a level 18 feat, which means it matters at end-game. Apart from apex items, which I specifically mentioned as end-game items, I tried my best to relate my experience going from 1 to 20.
Point #4 appears to forget entirely that there are a vast number of spells at the Animist's disposal, whether from the divine list or their apparitions, that don't rely on a spell DC to be effective. Wall spells in particular are not only on many apparitions' spell lists, but synergize incredibly well with a gish playstyle. If we really want to avoid any accusasations of "schrödinger's animist," one need only look at the Witness to Ancient Battles, i.e. the apparition that offers the embodiment of battle vessel spell, and see how it gives sure strike, enlarge, ghostly weapon, and true target.
That's very true, which is why I specifically mentioned DC spells. You can stick to buffs as an animist (although the nerf to sure strike hurts) but it cuts you off from most of a spellcaster's power, while giving little in return since your damage is so low.
All of which is to say: if you want to try a gish Animist, do give embodiment of battle a try if you want. Don't expect to consistently outdamage a Barbarian blow-for-blow (and don't base your standards of balance around that either), but expect to be able to Strike capably if you build your Animist decently, and break expectations for what a full caster is allowed to do if you build the right options.
That's not been my experience - but then this doesn't invalidate yours, I'm merely giving my opinion from what I saw and played.
I've posted many times that the animist was a strong class - far from overpowered, but very interesting - but if you want to really leverage its power, I believe you're better off leaning on the casting side of things than the martial one. I even posted a comparison showing (without any status buff) that you're dealing more damage more consistently with darken forest.
You said yourself, and I wholeheartedly agree, that one shouldn't fall into the trap of sustaining a vessel spell forever just because you can. I got my best experiences with the animist by dropping a focus spell when needed and going for another one.
Also, I believe someone was saying (I don't remember who) that in their table, the animist was overshadowing the melees and I don't see how that's possible. Any melee would be more accurate, deal more damage, be better at manoeuvers and have more tricks, while also probably being more sturdy, than an animist focused on battle.
And that's a good thing, since the animist brings much more to the table through his spells.
But you might have noticed that in my comparison I took care of using the unbuffed attack bonus (and take the levels where Embodiment of battle shines the brightest), in order to be as fair as possible.
Right, but it's not the details that are flawed here, it's the premise. Although I have seen plenty of Bards at my table, neither they nor the Marshal were such a fixture that a +1 status bonus to attack and damage rolls can be taken for granted, in my opinion.
The downside is that you cannot have two Apex items. So despite having a very flexible chassis, you'll have to choose at around level 17 whether you want to be better at casting and worse at fighting or the other way round.
It's great to have this choice - but it's also wrong to say you can be BOTH a great blaster and a great fighter, even if you change your apparitions and feats, just because your stuff and attributes don't change.
Oh no, perhaps the only instance where the Animist has to make a meaningful choice! We can't have that, can we? (I jest)
But also, I do break down embodiment of battle's attack bonus in a separate comment, the relevant part of which I'll share here:
Embodiment of battle does let an Animist match and even exceed an average martial in Strike accuracy: you match most martials at levels 1-4, 7-9, 13-14, and 17-19, and exceed their Strike accuracy at levels 11-12 and 15-16. In other words, the only times where you're behind martial classes is levels 5-6, 10, and 20, one-fifth of your levels, so you're spending most of your time equal or ahead. In fact, if you choose a Strength or Dex apex item, you pull ahead at levels 17-19 and match martial Strike accuracy at level 20. That you don't get Strike damage boosters in the same amounts as other martials (though the spell still gives you one) doesn't prevent the fact that you're already breaching niche protection far harder than any other spellcaster while also having more spells to throw around than your typical 3-slot caster past level 10.
So worst case scenario, you're only a point behind a full martial, as opposed to the Warpriest being two points behind, and if you do take that Strength apex item you match martials in Strike mod (and even exceed it across many levels) while being only a point behind full casters... as opposed to a Warpriest, who's two points behind. Could we please just take a moment to acknowledge how even by the standards of existing full caster gishes, this is way above the curve and not something that is normally allowed even for characters that explicitly specialize towards this specific purpose.
Cycle of souls is a level 18 feat, which means it matters at end-game. Apart from apex items, which I specifically mentioned as end-game items, I tried my best to relate my experience going from 1 to 20.
Not only do you have no problems citing apex items, which are only one level below, when it suits you, Forest's Heart is itself a very high-level feat. We're now entering a different kind of Schrödinger-style dilemma where the Animist is either high level or not based on argumentative convenience. The fact of the matter is that this feat exists, and directly addresses the concern you raised. You'll notice as well that I haven't really raised many competing options, so I'm curious to know where that "Schrödinger's animist" bit came from.
That's very true, which is why I specifically mentioned DC spells. You can stick to buffs as an animist (although the nerf to sure strike hurts) but it cuts you off from most of a spellcaster's power, while giving little in return since your damage is so low.
I urge you to read my reply again, which makes mentions of more than just buff spells, including wall spells. Given that the divine spell list is known for buffing, protecting, and healing, I would argue that it is not only possible, but extremely effective for an Animist to prepare those spells, particularly as spell damage itself becomes less of a necessity when you're committing to Striking for an encounter. You don't even need to avoid preparing blast or DC spells; you can just save those for another encounter, and if you really want to blast still, sure strike + ignition is a cheap way of firing up Cardinal Guardians to close that accuracy gap, albeit one that will take up your turn. Again, the Animist doesn't sacrifice that much spellcasting power in practice when going full gish, and I personally did not find that accuracy debuff an issue at all given all the other options at my disposal (that, and some spells are still extremely effective even on a successful save, like roaring applause). Turns out, Summoner-grade spellcasting accuracy is still pretty decent.
You said yourself, and I wholeheartedly agree, that one shouldn't fall into the trap of sustaining a vessel spell forever just because you can. I got my best experiences with the animist by dropping a focus spell when needed and going for another one.
This I agree with, and I do want to emphasize how this is hugely powerful -- even if we want to start on the grounds that an Animist wouldn't overtake any other class at their own specialty, but still get a lot of the way there, the fact that they can completely change their specialty at the drop of a hat is a vast amount of power nobody else has. By itself, that versatility might be fine if it were appropriately balanced, but when hugely versatile classes are balanced appropriately in Pathfinder 2e you usually get stuff like the Alchemist, which can do a lot in theory but doesn't feel great at anything in particular. That the Animist can get uncomfortably close to (and, in my opinion, surpass) other specialists and also get to change specialties so easily I think is a big reason why they don't make for the most fun collective play experience at the table.
Also, I believe someone was saying (I don't remember who) that in their table, the animist was overshadowing the melees and I don't see how that's possible. Any melee would be more accurate, deal more damage, be better at manoeuvers and have more tricks, while also probably being more sturdy, than an animist focused on battle.
And that's a good thing, since the animist brings much more to the table through his spells.
Well, as per the above, the Animist genuinely does exceed the attack mod of most martials at quite a few levels, and matches it at quite a few levels more -- in fact, the levels at which the Animist is behind a martial in Strike accuracy when using embodiment of battle are a very small minority. As my prior exchange with Deriven discusses, the Liturgist only needs two apparitions to get a benefit that a Fighter has to dedicate a 10th-level feat to get. As for sturdiness: the Animist is at minimum as durable as martial classes like the Investigator, and is a class with access to heal, resist energy, warding aggression, and many other survivability-enhancing options. Spell-based survivability is often overlooked and a major reason why classes like the Cleric can tank effectively.
Right, but it's not the details that are flawed here, it's the premise. Although I have seen plenty of Bards at my table, neither they nor the Marshal were such a fixture that a +1 status bonus to attack and damage rolls can be taken for granted, in my opinion.
If it's not the case, then I apologize. It seems so meaningful to us that we wouldn't ever go without it. But I guess in PFS plays it happens more often.
So worst case scenario, you're only a point behind a full martial, as opposed to the Warpriest being two points behind, and if you do take that Strength apex item you match martials in Strike mod (and even exceed it across many levels) while being only a point behind full casters... as opposed to a Warpriest, who's two points behind
Well, no.
Those numbers you gave include Embodiment of battle, so you're not one point behind full caster but a full three points behind - and behind the warpriest as well.Since you're comparing it to the warpriest, at least he can output respectable damage when built for it - and, lo and behold, he can use heroism as a 10mn buff without the need for sustain, without using an action at the beginning of the fight and without reducing his spellcasting. It costs him a slot so it's not as cheap, but it's much more efficient.
As has been pointed out, accuracy is one thing, damage is another, and there's little point to striking when you hit like a wet noodle.
Not only do you have no problems citing apex items, which are only one level below, when it suits you, Forest's Heart is itself a very high-level feat. We're now entering a different kind of Schrödinger-style dilemma where the Animist is either high level or not based on argumentative convenience. The fact of the matter is that this feat exists, and directly addresses the concern you raised. You'll notice as well that I haven't really raised many competing options, so I'm curious to know where that "Schrödinger's animist" bit came from.
You're not the only one I was answering to, since I specifically mentioned both sides of the argument.
As for citing apex items, I said that it was late in the game, but that I mentioned it because forest's heart was mentioned.
Games are usually played from 1 to 20, and it's certainly a very different thing if you're doing a one-shot at level 18 or 20, in which case my comment need not apply.
If you really want to blast still, sure strike + ignition is a cheap way of firing up Cardinal Guardians to close that accuracy gap, albeit one that will take up your turn.
Wait, so I cannot imagine that most parties use a way to get +1 to attack, but you're hasted in your scenarii ?
Again, the Animist doesn't sacrifice that much spellcasting power in practice when going full gish, and I personally did not find that accuracy debuff an issue at all given all the other options at my disposal (that, and some spells are still extremely effective even on a successful save, like roaring applause). Turns out, Summoner-grade spellcasting accuracy is still pretty decent.
That's an opinion, and you have every right to believe it. As for me, -3 accuracy on spells is a deal breaker.
(Apologies, the website seems to have some problems tonight and it's hard to answer correctly)
Well, as per the above, the Animist genuinely does exceed the attack mod of most martials at quite a few levels, and matches it at quite a few levels more -- in fact, the levels at which the Animist is behind a martial in Strike accuracy when using embodiment of battle are a very small minority. As my prior exchange with Deriven discusses, the Liturgist only needs two apparitions to get a benefit that a Fighter has to dedicate a 10th-level feat to get
An animist does exceed the attack mod of a barbarian or a rogue at level 11-12, that's true (provided again there's no buff involved, and that's not the case in my games).
But the level 12 animist using a guisarme deals 3d10+6 damage (av 22,5), and 3d10+9 (av 25,5) at level 15 (not counting propriety runes).
The level 12 giant barbarian using the same guisarme deals 3d10+16 (av 32,5) damage, and 3d10+29 (av 45,5) at level 15, while being sturdier, faster and, depending on feats, better at maneuvers, benefitting from action compression, or reach, or funny things like whirling strike at 14, and let's not forget critical specialization.
The level 12 thief rogue using a d6 weapon deals 6d6+7 (av 28) at first strike, 8d6+7 (av 35) afterwards, and with preparation can use his reaction twice to use AOOs just like your animist.
The much-maligned level 12 thaumaturge with adept regalia and tome, using crunch jaws, often has +1 circumstance bonus to attack, while dealing at least 3d8+15 with vulnerability 6 (basically 3d8+21 av 34,5). At level 15, that's 3d8+20 with vulnerability 7 (basically av 40,5), all while being able to sure strike every single turn.
The level 12 swashbuckler will use a bleeding finisher for 3d8+4d6+5 (assuming a 12 starting str) with 4d6 bleed (av 46,5 with a single tick) and at level 15 will deal 3d8+5d6+10 with 5d6 bleed (av 58,5 with a single tick).
Oh, and since you mentioned the warpriest, at level 12 a dps warpriest can use two actions with the same guisarme and one of his 6 free spells to deal 3d10+6d10+4 (av 49) and at level 15 it becomes 3d10+8d10+8 (av 68,5).
The level 12 inexorable iron magus spellstriking with amped imaginary weapon will deal 3d10+12d8+6 damage (av 76,5) and at level 15 it becomes 3d10+16d8+11 (av 99,5). Sure, it costs one focus point and needs recharging, but it's still spectacular.
And let's not start about the fighter, that would be painful.
Of course, all those classes don't need to spend an action first round to cast a spell, and don't need to move in order to sustain, which gives them much more freedom (apart from arguably magus).
So yeah, accuracy is one thing (and even so, a flimsy one since a single buff spell would change everything), but damage is another one - and animist doesn't hold a candle to all those martial classes.
(Apologies, the website seems to have some problems tonight and it's hard to answer correctly)
Well, as per the above, the Animist genuinely does exceed the attack mod of most martials at quite a few levels, and matches it at quite a few levels more -- in fact, the levels at which the Animist is behind a martial in Strike accuracy when using embodiment of battle are a very small minority. As my prior exchange with Deriven discusses, the Liturgist only needs two apparitions to get a benefit that a Fighter has to dedicate a 10th-level feat to getAn animist does exceed the attack mod of a barbarian or a rogue at level 11-12, that's true (provided again there's no buff involved, and that's not the case in my games).
But the level 12 animist using a guisarme deals 3d10+6 damage (av 22,5), and 3d10+9 (av 25,5) at level 15 (not counting propriety runes).
The level 12 giant barbarian using the same guisarme deals 3d10+16 (av 32,5) damage, and 3d10+29 (av 45,5) at level 15, while being sturdier, faster and, depending on feats, better at maneuvers, benefitting from action compression, or reach, or funny things like whirling strike at 14, and let's not forget critical specialization.
The level 12 thief rogue using a d6 weapon deals 6d6+7 (av 28) at first strike, 8d6+7 (av 35) afterwards, and with preparation can use his reaction twice to use AOOs just like your animist.
The much-maligned level 12 thaumaturge with adept regalia and tome, using crunch jaws, often has +1 circumstance bonus to attack, while dealing at least 3d8+15 with vulnerability 6 (basically 3d8+21 av 34,5). At level 15, that's 3d8+20 with vulnerability 7 (basically av 40,5), all while being able to sure strike every single turn.
The level 12 swashbuckler will use a bleeding finisher for 3d8+4d6+5 (assuming a 12 starting str) with 4d6 bleed (av 46,5 with a single tick) and at level 15 will deal 3d8+5d6+10 with 5d6 bleed (av 58,5 with a single tick).
Oh, and since you mentioned the warpriest, at level 12 a dps...
Teridax plays in different games than we do. That's why he seems to be the only one really pushing the animist as overpowered.
I like that the animist feels like it has some power myself. I'm at least glad Teridax pointed out the class. The animist looks to me like a new fun option for a group healer that can do some other stuff or another divine GISH that is more fun than a straight cleric or a druid.
It has a nice niche with some versatility.
I don't think it's overpowered at all. Only in a group with weakly built PCs would the class overshadow martials or casters.
With the new oracle and now the animist, I think we have some real good divine casters that can play the healer role and do something else. I know some don't like the changes to oracle because it takes away the unique flavor, but as far as pure power goes the Remastered oracle is pretty strong, on par with the cleric.
The animist is very much a match for the druid (which I know you hate), though I do wish the other practices were better because the action economy problems for non-Liturgists attempting something other than casting is a problem. The vessel sustain is a real drag. It forces everyone to take Circle of Spirits to change vessel spells in real time or the Liturgist practice to get the same feat.
I can't say as I love locked in classes, but the animist at least has some competitive builds and unique options that could be fun in a group.
I still intend to make a new thread for the blasting discussion generally, but the divine list is not a top half blasting list unless you are going up against a lot of outsiders and undead. It is good in those circumstances, maybe even the best, but for fighting dragons and giants and humanoids and constructs it is probably the worst.
Spells like eclipse burst are on good blaster lists, but I find the AoEs with too big of areas that target all creatures unusable by PCs more often than they are really good.
Many of the listed options above are significantly behind comparable level basic spells like fireball, lightning bolt, chain lightning, etc. Blessed boundary is an interesting spell to consider alongside vanguard of roaring waters, but 3 action spells are tough to fit in an animist action economy and getting the area right without blocking out your martials is complicated at best. It is not at all comparable to throwing out 2 or three chain lightnings a battle by level 11 or 13. Nor to throwing out a rank 8 chain lightning followed by a rank 6 chain lightning in the same round once per day in a tough fight against multiple creatures or Thunderstrikes against a solo boss.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I still intend to make a new thread for the blasting discussion generally, but the divine list is not a top half blasting list unless you are going up against a lot of outsiders and undead. It is good in those circumstances, maybe even the best, but for fighting dragons and giants and humanoids and constructs it is probably the worst.
Spells like eclipse burst are on good blaster lists, but I find the AoEs with too big of areas that target all creatures unusable by PCs more often than they are really good.
Many of the listed options above are significantly behind comparable level basic spells like fireball, lightning bolt, chain lightning, etc. Blessed boundary is an interesting spell to consider alongside vanguard of roaring waters, but 3 action spells are tough to fit in an animist action economy and getting the area right without blocking out your martials is complicated at best. It is not at all comparable to throwing out 2 or three chain lightnings a battle by level 11 or 13. Nor to throwing out a rank 8 chain lightning followed by a rank 6 chain lightning in the same round once per day in a tough fight against multiple creatures or Thunderstrikes against a solo boss.
Forum servers having a few issues. I wonder if they are dealing with some server heating issues due to this heatwave.
I've been meaning to start a tactics thread. I think discussing caster strategy overall make for a good thread. How to position, what spells to hit with first, best buffs and debuffs, and such.