| Ghoster |
For the Giant Flytrap monster, the engulf extraordinary ability mentions that, "... begins its turn...it can close its jaws completely around the foe by making a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the foe)." But doesn't specify what kind of action type this takes. Am I right to assume that it is the same action type as pinning normally? Or is it something that happens automatically, no action expenditure needed, when its turn begins?
| DeathlessOne |
I would assume it remains the same action type as pinning (or grappling) would be as it doesn't state otherwise. Standard action. Its basically replacing the need to maintain your grapple and goes straight into a pinning attempt, though replaces/adds to it with the Engulf rules as specified in its entry.
| Azothath |
→Giant Flytrap CR 10 Engulf(Ex) grappled med size or less foe it can make a new CMB check {Gnt Flytrap: +18, +22 grapple +5 crcm maintain grapple, CMD 32}. If it succeeds it engulfs the prey and inflicts (1d8+7 +2d6[acid])dmg. The seal formed is airtight and the engulfed creature risks suffocation. Engulf is a special form of pinning and the pinned creature can escape as usual. As an engulfed creature is contained wholly inside the plant’s jaws, the flytrap’s victim cannot be targeted by effects or attacks that require line of sight or line of effect. A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered.
Grapple is a std actn. It does not have Imp Grapple feat so it provokes but not from a currently grappled target.
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). Pin is listed and Engulf is a pin, so I'd say on Rnd 2(or Rnd 1 if there was a surprise action) it is Maintain Grapple then attempt Engulf at +5.
| Azothath |
Don't overlook that the Giant Flytrap has the grab special ability, which applies to its bite attacks (and thus grapple checks with its mouth(s)). It doesn't need Improved Grab to avoid AoO, and making grapple checks DO NOT provoke AoO, only the action of initiating a grapple against a target does.
true, missed that as grab was only in the attack line.
As written it may attempt to engulf after maintaining a grapple (two parts of the text, "begins its turn" & Pin).
Diego Rossi
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If a giant flytrap begins its turn with an opponent at least two size categories smaller than itself grappled in one of its mouths, it can close its jaws completely around the foe by making a new combat maneuver check (as though attempting to pin the foe).
...
A giant flytrap that is grappling or pinning a foe cannot attack other targets with that bite, but is not otherwise hindered.
Not very clear, but I read it as:
"If a giant flytrap makes a full attack and starts the turn with a grappled creature in one of its mouths (the standard variety has 4 bite attacks and 4 mouths), it can try to pin that creature with that mouth while the other mouths make normal attacks."
| Azothath |
the 'otherwise not hindered' is alluding to the -20 for grappling a target with a limb, not having [grappled] and attempting another CM on target #2, 3, 4...
There are a lot of creative descriptive flourishes woven into and over the mechanics. It's why I paraphrased in my first post rather than put in a spoiler with a block of text. Still rather long but less cluttered...
This plant monster is an awesome grappling machine, see tendriculous.
Diego Rossi
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the 'otherwise not hindered' is alluding to the -20 for grappling a target with a limb, not having [grappled] and attempting another CM on target #2, 3, 4...
It is a valid and credible interpretation, but it makes the ability useless and even counterproductive. If the action uses a standard action, the "average damage" for CR calculation becomes 22 as soon as it starts using it. It essentially makes killing the plant extremely easy as soon as there are multiple opponents.
Not having the grapple condition doesn't allow it to "attempt another CM on target #2, 3, 4...", it allows it to make attacks of opportunity and, if it hits, to attempt a grapple thanks to grab.
When it makes its full attack, it can attempt a grapple for each of the bites that hit, but if it uses a standard action to engulf an opponent, it can't make a full attack.
As a lot of monsters with multiple attacks and the grab ability, it is more convenient for it to release its captive every round and make a full attack.
| Azothath |
Azothath wrote:the 'otherwise not hindered' is alluding to the -20 for grappling a target with a limb, not having [grappled] and attempting another CM on target #2, 3, 4...It is a valid and credible interpretation, but it makes the ability useless and even counterproductive. ...
LoL... I think you've gone off into some swampy weeds forgetting BAB/CM/Attack rules and then intuited that Int:1 creatures can read tactical manuals...
Diego Rossi
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Diego Rossi wrote:LoL... I think you've gone off into some swampy weeds forgetting BAB/CM/Attack rules and then intuited that Int:1 creatures can read tactical manuals...Azothath wrote:the 'otherwise not hindered' is alluding to the -20 for grappling a target with a limb, not having [grappled] and attempting another CM on target #2, 3, 4...It is a valid and credible interpretation, but it makes the ability useless and even counterproductive. ...
Maybe you should re-read the grab ability before you disagree with me?
Grab (Ex)
Source Bestiary 6 pg. 294, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary pg. 301, Bestiary 2 pg. 297, Bestiary 3 pg. 295, Bestiary 4 pg. 295, Bestiary 5 pg. 294
If the creature hits with the indicated attack, it deals the normal amount of damage and tries to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents the same size category as the creature or smaller. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its combat maneuver check to start and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each grapple combat maneuver check it succeeds at during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constrict and grapple damage (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).Creatures with the grab special attack receive a +4 bonus on combat maneuver checks to start and maintain a grapple.
Each successful bite attack grants a free grapple.
Maintaining a grapple, even if you don't have the grappled condition, is a standard action:
...If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Int 1 creatures don't read tactical manuals, but animal intelligence creatures generally know how to use their abilities efficiently.
A Flytrap that discards 3/4 of its attacks to pin a creature will be under an evolutionary pressure to move to a single, more powerful attack, or to learn to release the grappled target if attacked by other creatures while grappling something.