I have a question regarding battle commencement in case PCs are sneaking.
Let us say Party comes up to the door sneakily and all roll for Stealth initiative (with bonus because hidden behind the door). All goes well (PCs see relatively high numbers so decide to act slowly).
1st round
Party rogue decides to come up to the door and listen. Somebody is apparently behind the door. He decides to move aside and make space for the others.
Others wait behind the door and ready weapons stealthily.
Creatures behind the door can't hear them apparently and do their stuff.
2nd round Party decides to delay until lowest PC init is active and then start action. Rogue: Opens the door (1 action), Seeks (1 action), and sees the enemies in plain view (no need for rolls), and as they seem to be enemies shoots one bolt for sneak attack (PCs are still unnoticed to enemies). Barbarian: Storms inside, seeks and chops head off an off-guard enemy.
And so one.
What I mean, until they are not noticed behind the door, PCs are unnoticed. And when they storm into the room, enemies still need automatical success seek action to detect PCs.
What about PCs VS Enemies Perception vs Stealth?
On one hand the enemies should roll for init (probably Perception), on the other hand they are not actively listen so active is PCs stealth and not Perception. So we take passive Perception DC as a result of whether enemies detected PCs or not and roll for initiative Perception separately?
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Initiative is for determining order of action at the time that combat starts.
What you are describing with sneaking up to the door and hiding behind the door is exploration mode stealth.
Initiative wouldn't be rolled until the Rogue declares that they are wanting to do a Sneak Attack and the Barbarian declares that they are breaking cover and storming inside to attack one of the enemies. At that point everyone would roll initiative. The Barbarian wouldn't be rolling stealth any more because they are breaking cover, but whatever they roll they would still have to beat all of the enemy's initiative rolls in order to act first.
Doing rounds of 'combat' where one side is unaware of the existence of the other is not something that the combat rules handle well. Because it isn't the expected way that combat runs.
I disagree with your initial write up.
The PCs are presumably using exploration rules, and are all using Avoid Notice. If the PCs aren't using avoid notice, my typical ruling would be they are automatically noticed at a certain point, but when/where varies on situation. In this case, because there is a door it would be at the door.
However, when you plan to start opening the door we would switch from exploration mode to encounter mode.
You role your initiative (using stealth) and also use that role to see if the enemy notices you (with their Perception DC).
After this point, PCs need to use Sneak and Hide. As soon as someone does something other than Hide, Sneak, or Step they stop being Hidden.
Meaning the character opening the door is no longer hidden. And the door opening is likely to draw attention.
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In a nutshell, ambushing in PF2 is unusual, partly because it's so strong (even stronger in previous editions). At least vs. at-level opponents who are combat ready. Imagine if it were the PCs being approached, wouldn't players in hostile environs expect to react to a door opening as if in combat? Or noises outside when you have excellent Perception? And once one notices, it's dominoes as others notice the noticing. Once the PCs kinda know there are enemies behind the door, the party has to move very fast to get any advantage since they're in the enemies' detection zone too.
Of course there have long been narrative reasons in adventures for why guards aren't guarding (i.e. gambling, drunk, rely on a trap-alarm), but those aren't reflected in the dry mechanics. You could retroactively give such reasons to explain why the party's Stealth rolls were so good, and inverse reasons if bad. The door is only the obvious factor, not the sole determiner.
In one notorious fight in the playtest, one battle with goblins swung upon whether the GM played them as combat ready or not (not ready being the default as written). So if you approach this in terms of ambushes, consider if those behind the door have to stand up, draw weapon, even get their weapons off a rack. I doubt they have any shields on their arm either. Even being out of formation matters.
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To feed into what previous posters are talking about. This is outlined in GMCore, Initiative is rolled when the party either is noticed (such as failing a stealth check) or are about to be noticed from an action they take(such as storming into the room).
GM Core pg. 24 2.0; Starting the Encounter wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice). As such Round 1 and 2 makes no sense since the encounter hasn't started until the enemies would become aware of atleast one party member.
On the very next page there is something that backs this up.
GM Core pg. 25 2.0; Initiative with hidden enemies wrote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. Similarly, The moment an enemy manages to act they are most likely going to warn the others either by using Point Out or just talking.
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I think it is important to make emphasis on one note of wording in that rules quote too.
Starting the Encounter wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice). The Rogue doesn't get to make a sneak attack and then everyone rolls initiative.
Initiative is rolled once the player decides that the Rogue intends to make a sneak attack. Before the sneak attack is made, Initiative is rolled.
The typical benefit of a blitz attack on unaware enemies is that the unaware characters have to wait for their turn to come up in initiative order before they gain a reaction. Barring any other abilities that state otherwise such as the new Guardian's class ability Ever Ready.
Yep, for me as a GM, encounter mode basically starts any time where tracking what characters are doing on a round by round sort of basis matters. So as soon as the party sees a door and they think enemies are on the other side of it and are prepare to enter, that's encounter mode. They're probably 30ft away from the door or further. There are some stealth feats that can modify this, because they allow you to get closer without making checks, but generally speaking as soon as players are thinking about going into an encounter, encounter time starts and exploration mode ends. Yes it means that the enemy on the other side may not be visible and they may not be aware of the impending combat.
But there's also the chance that a vigilant NPC hears the PCs approaching.
Something I wish the rules made more clear is the idea of a non-combat Encounter mode. The point in the narrative where you are tracking events in the very short amounts of time measured by actions, but there isn't an initiative order.
Finoan wrote: Something I wish the rules made more clear is the idea of a non-combat Encounter mode. The point in the narrative where you are tracking events in the very short amounts of time measured by actions, but there isn't an initiative order. I can't recall the wording, but I think the rule book makes it clear that any time where time matters, and tracking individuals actions are important is exactly what Encounter mode is, it doesn't even matter if there are no NPCs present.
It could literally just be a timer of you have 10 rounds to escape from this room before it instantly fills with lava. There's no antagonist present. The order in which people are doing things doesn't matter necessarily (though it might) but you're definitely should use encounter mode to keep track of what everyone is doing while they try to figure out how to get out of the room.
If as a GM I didn't think turn order mattered (or if the players didn't think it mattered) I'd probably roll for everyone anyways (or have players roll) and keep track anyways. Because you never know, it might end up mattering.
Claxion wrote: I can't recall the wording, but I think the rule book makes it clear that any time where time matters, and tracking individuals actions are important is exactly what Encounter mode is, it doesn't even matter if there are no NPCs present. It only says that very loosely as to describe encounter mode. It does not however say that it is whenever time matters as time could just as much matter in exploration. (Social encounters for example have the same timeframes and pressure as they can measure minutes or hours)
I can already tell this is going to be a long post because theres multiple topics I want to cover, but here we go.
The two texts are both the intros for the Player Core and GM Core chapters for encounters. Player Core, Encounter Mode wrote: When every individual action counts, you enter the encounter mode of play. In this mode, time is divided into rounds, each of which is 6 seconds of time in the game world. Every round, each participant takes a turn in an established order. During your turn, you can use actions, and depending on the details of the encounter, you might have the opportunity to use reactions and free actions on your own turn and on others’ turns. And a few scentences later Quote: The rules in this section assume a combat encounter—a battle—but the general structure can apply to any kind of encounter. Other types of encounters, like social encounters, might use longer rounds or have other modifications to the basic structure. The same is said in GMCore "GM Core; Running Encounters wrote: Encounters are the major set pieces of a story, where characters come into direct engagement with each other. They can take many forms: a brawl in a tavern, a race to disarm a doomsday device before it detonates, or even an impassioned negotiation with the queen. Whenever stakes are high and a character's moment-to-moment actions could make or break the scene, you'll want to call for initiative and dive into encounter mode.
Stakes: Moderate to high. Encounters always have significant stakes, and they're played in a step-by-step time frame to reflect that.
Time Scale: Encounter mode is highly structured and proceeds in discrete rounds, with each character taking their turn to act in a set order. In combat encounters, each round is 6 seconds long (so a minute-long duel would take 10 rounds). In social encounters, you might decide play proceeds in minute-long or longer rounds to give each speaker enough time to make a solid point.
Basically, regardless of combat, social or other kind of encounter structure. Like that of the Infiltration or Chase subsystems. The main thing that sets them appart from exploration when using similar flow of time and time pressure, is the turn order and the enforcement of who does what and when.
Its also worth noting that the only reason a turn order is maintained during these special encounters is because it makes timing easier when moving from one obstacle to the next, without advesaries or similar, The initiative order is mostly pointless and may as well be ignored and then rolled if it would matter. Such as in the Influence system where players act whenever they like, once per round, with no turn order. Just as Finoan, I personally wish this was adressed further and in the actual chapter for encounters within the GMCore and not as an offnote in the subsystems chapter (which makes sense since the CRB directly referenced the subsystems for alternate encounter structures whereas the GMCore does not).
What makes Influence Encounters differ from Exploration?
In Exploration PCs can typically act whenever they feel like, including multiple times per round as opposed to only once per round. (They still have the same amount of actions per round regardless)
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Preparation for a combat I see as similar to exploration, There is no point in enforcing a strict turn order before combat actually breaks out if people are just going to take their turns in the order they desire through liberal use of Delay. Or even enforce themselves as acting before anyone else through abuse of it.
The GM Core also points this out. GM Core pg. 38 2.0; Fleshing out Exploration wrote: Before a Fight
Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative.
Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can’t hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party’s presence. In cases where the PCs’ preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations.
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Using OPs example, The act of sneaking up to the door is part of Avoid Notice during Exploration, Wether or not they suspect, believe or know there are enemies behind the door matters not as they have not been noticed yet, The enemies has no reason to act against them. They still very much do their things and might suddenly walk out the door if the party takes to long. But until they are observed by the players they are only figments of the GMs mind.
The GM can say that each party member would need a sneak roll to head up to the door while drawing their weapons, they are now preparing for combat while having being unnoticed. If they all make their checks then they are still unnoticed. The rogue can now attempt to sneakily open the door.
There is no delay shenanigans to be had here, PCs arent supposed to be able to manipulate initiative in such a way that they all are guaranteed to act before enemies.
The GM can handle the opening of the door in two ways that I see. Either the rogue fails and initiative is rolled with the door still closed, or the initiative is rolled with the door open with no-one having any more opportunities to prepare. Or if the rogue did succeed there might be more opportunities to prepare. Either way he instantly sees the NPC standing in the open without needing to seek.
By deciding to take the shot initiative is now rolled BEFORE he fires his shot. Any NPCs that rolls higher than the Rogues initiative either notices that the door has been pushed ajar(if the rogues Stealth-Init beat their perception DC) or actually spots the rogue(if the rogue didn't beat the DC).
NorrKnekten, I don't think you actually disagree with that I'm saying.
In any event, I want to point out that via stealth rules you can't open the door and maintain stealth as anything other than Hide, Sneak, or Step you become observed. Opening the door is an interact action that isn't one of those.
Not really a disagreement no, The moment the party are prepared and about to bust down that door or get noticed is when initiative is rolled.
More so I was bringing up my point of view in how GM Core says to handle it after having deliberated on it, It just happened to relate to what you were saying as to when you roll initiative according to GMCore. Ontop of sharing the wish to have rules for a non-initiative combat structure actually outlined rather than a quick note in a subsystem.
As for pushing a door slightly open to peek trough it, Both Hide and Sneak gives support for being able to do it as part of a stealth check to remain unnoticed. Provided they are "particularly unobtrusive" about it. Player Core pg. 244 2.0 Hide wrote: If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains off-guard against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check. Edit: Probably more accurate to say that with exception of the alternative encounter structure, it was more aimed at the issues found in the OPs example than anything you said.
I would maybe allow someone to attempt to stealthily open a door just a fraction to look in (talking like 1/8" opening at most) without breaking stealth.
But not full on opening the door.
Anyways, I think we're on the same page, or at least a very similar one.
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I would say that we are on the same page yeah.
The point where I said the door would be open or not from a failed stealth check was more in relation to the rogue being able to observe atleast one enemy behind the door due to getting it open enough. Or if the door would remain fully closed with the rogue still holding the door-handle once the encounter starts. Thats going to depend on GM and narrative and maybe even what kind of door we are talking about.
Fully opening the door would very obviously be noticed similarly to standing up from your hiding spot.
Yep. I tend to start encounter mode at about one move action away from where enemies are almost certain to be either noticed or where they might notice the PCs.
I do this so that there is no meta thing going on about "oh, the GM didn't put us in encounter mode so there must not be enemies".
For all the players know, there's an enemy standing right next to the door. So I let them get within 30ft of the door and then we're in encounter mode.
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Finoan wrote:
The typical benefit of a blitz attack on unaware enemies is that the unaware characters have to wait for their turn to come up in initiative order before they gain a reaction. Barring any other abilities that state otherwise such as the new Guardian's class ability Ever Ready.
To clarify, whether characters get their reaction before their first turn is GM discretion. Most GM's treat that as "if you are aware of it you can react to it." But there's no blanket rule that you can't use a reaction before your first turn like PF1.
And because reactions aren't universal, I'd argue there are better benefits to ambushes:
--Allows high dexterity characters to use a better score than perception, especially when you stack the circumstance bonus from cover. (Lying in ambush, not moving before combat begins, you can get +4, and it is usually +2.)
--Rendering the enemy off guard to your strikes as a rogue, or your first ranged strike for other classes.
--Makes you harder to detect/locate/target/hit if an enemy goes before you. Even if you (non-critically) fail against the enemy perception DC you start out as hidden with a 50% miss chance.
Claxon wrote: Yep. I tend to start encounter mode at about one move action away from where enemies are almost certain to be either noticed or where they might notice the PCs.
I do this so that there is no meta thing going on about "oh, the GM didn't put us in encounter mode so there must not be enemies".
For all the players know, there's an enemy standing right next to the door. So I let them get within 30ft of the door and then we're in encounter mode.
Yeaaa, see thats where we arent on the same page. Either because we use the phrase "Encounter Mode" differently or because we are talking of something completely different. Because using distinct actions like sneak, interact, seek and such is still part of Exploration Mode when done where theres no distinct turn order or structure. Its just no-initiative, freeflow, With a timeframe measured in rounds where PCs act in whatever order they please. Thats exploration as it lacks the structure.
Initiative is the beginning of Encounter mode, and GM Core says to roll it when either side initiate combat. In most cases this will be as they are noticed, but not all cases so that distinction is important.
But if the players as part of exploration are doing round by round preparations as if the encounter had started, Then that is supported within the GM Core. I do it that way.
But I personally would advise against any sort of initiative roll and stricter turn structure until a fight actually breaks out. Messing with the table pacing to needlessly jump between encounter and exploration at every door/corner/box/bush that might have an enemy just isn't worth it, And if you aren't doing it at every door/corner/box/bush that might have an enemy then you are only enforcing that meta you are trying to avoid by essentially declaring everywhere you don't call for initiative as safe.
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As for the meta itself, I have seen players with that mindset but honestly all it takes is to subvert expectations, let them stumble into enemies unknowingly. Including enemies that were aware of the party and set up accordingly instead of attacking.
One way of looking at it is that regularly calling for initiative before combat breaks out only sets the expectation that any place where you have not yet called for initiative is safe and free from enemies. Where as only calling for initiative once combat breaks out sets the expectation that there might be enemies all over the place but the party is never going to know for sure until they actually check. And if they check using perception.. well they don't know if they failed or if theres nobody around.
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... that was a very longwinded way to say "As long as you don't involve an initiative roll as part of the party getting within 30ft of the door then I believe we are"
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The other thing about running this in exploration mode until the door is opened and initiative is rolled is that it intentionally limits what you can do at once. In exploration mode (barring certain feats), there's no such thing as stealthily listening at the door (or looking for traps) or stealthily reading for combat. Those are all different exploration activities.
That's not really likely to matter here on the other side of a door, unless those on the other side have really high perceptions and are actively listening, but it does matter a lot of the time.
As for opening the door: Are we treating that as a separate Stealth roll for the Rogue? If he fails (below their passive perception?), the enemy notices and presumably everyone rolls initiative. Can he still roll stealth for init, even though he's drawn attention?
If he succeeds, they don't notice and the PCs can either back off or finish opening the door, rolling initiative and beginning the fight. At which point, other PCs could delay to let the rogue finish opening the door if they wish. When would enemies detect PCs? If anyone didn't use Avoid Notice, they'd be detected at the start of combat, though they might be out of line of sight, right? The same for anyone who didn't beat the enemies passive perception.
IMO the door is part of the battlefield, not its boundary, and the party has very much encountered the enemy. I'd run it the same way in reverse. A rather extreme door might be an exception, but we have no description here to judge by. Imagine a doorway instead, moving up from open to a bead curtain to a folding screen and so on. As long as the party's aware and moving to aggress, I think they've initiated an encounter even if combat hasn't engaged yet.
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I side with rolling initiative in most tense & timed situations, generally as measured by the players & PCs. I've never had an issue with players feeling it must be safe because we haven't rolled initiative as it might spring up at any instant. Heck, there might be bandits outside their door who've been moving into position for a few rounds now.
I suppose one litmus test is whether PCs can Ready an Action. If reasonably so, they're in Encounter Mode.
Does PF2 retain the old rule about rerolling initiative in extraordinary cases? Ex. All creatures Delay to see what the unknown dragon that's landed among them does.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NorrKnekten wrote: On the very next page there is something that backs this up.
GM Core pg. 25 2.0; Initiative with hidden enemies wrote: ...So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them.
I hate that rule. It didn't really exist before Remaster (or perhaps one of the errata shortly before Remaster) and it makes it impossible to enter an encounter while Unnoticed, which prevents a number of abilities from working as intended.
The game devs need to get on the same page and remove that problematic verbiage.
thejeff wrote: The other thing about running this in exploration mode until the door is opened and initiative is rolled is that it intentionally limits what you can do at once. In exploration mode (barring certain feats), there's no such thing as stealthily listening at the door (or looking for traps) or stealthily reading for combat. Those are all different exploration activities. Not quite true, Any action you can do in Encounter mode can be done in Exploration mode. Exploration activities are built on the foundation that you handwave repeated checks. Them actively listening also isnt a neccesity with hearing.
thejeff wrote: As for opening the door: Are we treating that as a separate Stealth roll for the Rogue? If he fails (below their passive perception?), the enemy notices and presumably everyone rolls initiative. Can he still roll stealth for init, even though he's drawn attention?
If he succeeds, they don't notice and the PCs can either back off or finish opening the door, rolling initiative and beginning the fight. At which point, other PCs could delay to let the rogue finish opening the door if they wish. When would enemies detect PCs? If anyone didn't use Avoid Notice, they'd be detected at the start of combat, though they might be out of line of sight, right? The same for anyone who didn't beat the enemies passive perception.
The slight opening of the door to catch a peek is a "particularly unobtrusive action" and as such can be done with the use of a stealth check to remain unnoticed. Regardless if he becomes noticed or not he can still roll stealth as he was being sneaky and still benefit from either being undetected or hidden as usual for sneak, (but obviously not unnoticed).
If he succeeds then yes they could back off should they choose, or he can line that shot up with a crossbow trough the opening, or fully open the door. In the past there were more clear examples on when you roll initiative but the examples boil down to "When the party/enemy makes an apperance" or "When the player announces they are about to launch suprise attack with their very next action"
Once initiative is rolled the enemies are about to notice the party, With the enemies noticing the party individually at the start of their turns.
Castilliano wrote: IMO the door is part of the battlefield, not its boundary, and the party has very much encountered the enemy. I'd run it the same way in reverse. A rather extreme door might be an exception, but we have no description here to judge by. Imagine a doorway instead, moving up from open to a bead curtain to a folding screen and so on. As long as the party's aware and moving to aggress, I think they've initiated an encounter even if combat hasn't engaged yet.
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I side with rolling initiative in most tense & timed situations, generally as measured by the players & PCs. I've never had an issue with players feeling it must be safe because we haven't rolled initiative as it might spring up at any instant. Heck, there might be bandits outside their door who've been moving into position for a few rounds now.
I suppose one litmus test is whether PCs can Ready an Action. If reasonably so, they're in Encounter Mode.
Does PF2 retain the old rule about rerolling initiative in extraordinary cases? Ex. All creatures Delay to see what the unknown dragon that's landed among them does.
Encountered the enemy yes, but if the enemies have no reason to act there is also no reason to maintain a strict turn order as Encounter Mode enforces. Similarly if the party isn't aware of the enemy there is no reason to call for initiative until the party do become aware.
The litmus test also does not work, Ready and Reactions are available in exploration mode.
"GM Core pg. 34 2.0; Running Exploration wrote: Actions and Reactions: Though exploration isn't broken into rounds, exploration activities assume the PCs are spending part of their time using actions, such as Seeking or Interacting. If they have specific actions they want to use, they should ask; you can decide whether the actions apply and whether to switch to encounter mode for greater detail. PCs can use any relevant reactions that come up during exploration mode. as for the dragon, I believe the closest we have is GM Core pg. 24 2.0; Starting the Encounter wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice). A player will tell you if their character intends to start a conflict, and you'll determine when the actions of NPCs and other creatures initiate combat. Occasionally, two sides might stumble across one another. In this case, there isn't much time to decide, but you should still ask if anyone intends to attack. If the PCs and NPCs alike just want to talk or negotiate, there's no reason to roll initiative only to drop out of combat immediately! Basically, if the other side doesn't show hostilities and the PCs don't want to attack or want to see what the other side does. Then you should avoid rolling initiative, or drop out of it until combat does happen.
Ravingdork wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: On the very next page there is something that backs this up.
GM Core pg. 25 2.0; Initiative with hidden enemies wrote: ..
I hate that rule. It didn't really exist before Remaster (or perhaps one of the errata shortly before Remaster) Love it or hate it It was present in the original print of the GMG. So it was written sometime 2019. Almost as old as the system itself.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NorrKnekten wrote: Love it or hate it It was present in the original print of the GMG. So it was written sometime 2019. Almost as old as the system itself. As the case may be, it doesn't change the fact that the rule breaks various game mechanics elsewhere and also makes it virtually impossible to play a true stealth character.
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Claxon wrote: Finoan wrote: Something I wish the rules made more clear is the idea of a non-combat Encounter mode. The point in the narrative where you are tracking events in the very short amounts of time measured by actions, but there isn't an initiative order. I can't recall the wording, but I think the rule book makes it clear that any time where time matters, and tracking individuals actions are important is exactly what Encounter mode is, it doesn't even matter if there are no NPCs present. I would agree with that. The rules for non-combat Encounter mode do exist... if you read the rules very, very carefully.
I just wish the rules made the idea more clear. So that more GMs would use it when it is appropriate.
I was in a PbP here on the forums in which the GM pretty much insisted that “ambushes” weren’t within the framework of PF2/R and that there wasn’t really any way for us to prepare for a combat we knew was coming by having weapons in our hands. He adjusted one of the Exploration options to kinda let us have a weapon ready, but wasn’t happy about it. Even after I pointed out that contrary to his belief that “even the devs in actual play vids don’t let you start with weapons already drawn” the Example of Play in the Player Core (p.12 IIRC) has *two* characters with weapons in hand.
One of his reasons was that it would be “unfair” to the enemies, and that they then could “do it too”. Which, of course, as grognards, more than a few of us were completely ok with.
We did find the exact “moment” Exploration mode became Encounter mode difficult to relate to.
Ravingdork wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: Love it or hate it It was present in the original print of the GMG. So it was written sometime 2019. Almost as old as the system itself. As the case may be, it doesn't change the fact that the rule breaks various game mechanics elsewhere and also makes it virtually impossible to play a true stealth character. Not really though? Atleast I'm not aware of any unnoticed related mechanics that "break" unless you call for initiative before the enemies has a reason to act and theres plenty of evidence to show that the writers didn't intend for GMs to maintain a turn order by initiative until the two sides begin to act directly and visibly against one another. The rule is there for a reason after all and I believe the age old threads asking for clarifications as to how to handle initiative and stealth are still around.
It is by no means impossible to play a true stealth character by RAW, But abilities that interact with Unnoticed are supposed to be similar to the Suprise Attacker feature according to the designers. If anything they just released their sneakiest archetype so far with the Guerilla and gave us a replacement for Assasinate.
NorrKnekten wrote: ... that was a very longwinded way to say "As long as you don't involve an initiative roll as part of the party getting within 30ft of the door then I believe we are" That's correct. Getting to within 30ft of the door is covered as part of exploration mode. Once they get that close, and the potential for it their individual actions to matter and potentially change what is happening, that's when I switch to encounter mode.
If I have a dungeon where there are many such doors, is does get more complicated, and I tend to run a sort of weird mix of exploration and encounter mode to get us to the next point where their individual actions could matter.
As an arbitrary example, if they clear a room and there's a 200ft hallway, I'm not going to have them walk down the hallway round by round keeping track of imitative, but I'm also not going to limit them solely to doing the things found in exploration mode either. They're perfectly capable of walking down the hallway while searching and being stealthy. And its unlikely to matter whether it takes 4 rounds or 8 rounds (or even a little more or little less) to cover the distance to the next point in standard encounter mode.
Exploration mode works really well for long duration (in game) activities and encounter mode works great for...well encounters where individual actions might matter. However, when you have a string of encounters with bits in between...I personally find that neither encounter mode or exploration mode handle it exactly the way I want, although kind of blending the two does.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
NorrKnekten wrote: Not really though? Assassinate as written in Player Core 2 does not function in any game in which that rule prevents you from being in an encounter Unnoticed and in which the GM rolls initiative once hostile intent is declared.
If RAW is being adhered to, that's every game. Something needs to change.
It's not just assassinate either. There are similar abilities that fail in much the same way, all because of that one line.
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Claxion wrote: that's correct. Getting to within 30ft of the door is covered as part of exploration mode. Once they get that close, and the potential for it their individual actions to matter and potentially change what is happening, that's when I switch to encounter mode. Soo, 30ft and then what you call Encounter, But no Initiative until the the party is actually noticed or is about to take direct action that would make them noticed?
Because I feel like thats where the disconnect between us is happening. When you say switching to Encounter I assume you mean calling for Initiative. And doing that before either side has noticed the other and is about to reveal their presence is the part I take issue with.
You view Exploration as the mode to use when individual actions matter.
I view it as the mode where we are still able to handle round, turn and acting order in a freeform manner.
So you can tell me if i'm doing it your way or similar.
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- *The party arrives to a door when exploring. Rounds are currently handwaived and isn't bothere with.
- *The players state they want to prepare by the door. I set the flow of time back to rounds but do not change the freeflow structure.
- *They each perform their preparations, if the order matters they are the ones to decide in what order things happen. They know any obtrusive actions can trigger the encounter. Any placements of the characters only occur if combat breaks out or if they tell me their character moves to that spot.
- *Initiative is rolled if they become noticed or they finish an action that would make them noticed, or before the action if it is an attack.
NorrKnekten wrote: thejeff wrote: The other thing about running this in exploration mode until the door is opened and initiative is rolled is that it intentionally limits what you can do at once. In exploration mode (barring certain feats), there's no such thing as stealthily listening at the door (or looking for traps) or stealthily reading for combat. Those are all different exploration activities. Not quite true, Any action you can do in Encounter mode can be done in Exploration mode. Exploration activities are built on the foundation that you handwave repeated checks. Them actively listening also isnt a neccesity with hearing. Active listening isn't a necessity but is how the original post described it and while you certainly can do it in exploration mode, you can't combine it with stealth. Which again, wouldn't likely matter in this situation, unless those on the other side of the door were actively listening themselves.
NorrKnekten wrote: thejeff wrote: As for opening the door: Are we treating that as a separate Stealth roll for the Rogue? If he fails (below their passive perception?), the enemy notices and presumably everyone rolls initiative. Can he still roll stealth for init, even though he's drawn attention? The slight opening of the door to catch a peek is a "particularly unobtrusive action" and as such can be done with the use of a stealth check to remain unnoticed. Regardless if he becomes noticed or not he can still roll stealth as he was being sneaky and still benefit from either being undetected or hidden as usual for sneak, (but obviously not unnoticed).
It seems odd that failing the stealth check to open the door still gives him another stealth(initiative) check to remain undetected.
Ravingdork wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: Not really though? Assassinate as written in Player Core 2 does not function in any game in which that rule prevents you from being in an encounter Unnoticed and in which the GM rolls initiative once hostile intent is declared.
If RAW is being adhered to, that's every game. Something needs to change.
It's not just assassinate either. There are similar abilities that fail in much the same way, all because of that one line. Except its not Initiative upon intent, its initiative upon attack or noticed hostile intent GM Core pg. 24 2.0 wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice) And thats the wording, "Begin to use an action their foes can't help but notice" If the enemies don't notice you sneaking around then you don't roll for initiative.
And that works perfectly fine if the designers intent was for Assasinate and other Unnoticed abilities to be a first round thing against targets unaware of the danger, like Suprise Attack.
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TheJeff wrote: It seems odd that failing the stealth check to open the door still gives him another stealth(initiative) check to remain undetected. No I agree, but that is how its written and designed.
Avoid notice is weird because it has two parts like that, with feats that explicitly only work with one part but not the other.
One that represents repeated sneaking as travel Essentially only giving away your presence, And then another to remain hidden long enough before enemies to react as you spring an ambush or to sneak back into cover. before being noticed.
I find it helps if one consider that the goal of the exploration check isn't to become undetected but rather to stay unnoticed.
NorrKnekten wrote: Claxion wrote: that's correct. Getting to within 30ft of the door is covered as part of exploration mode. Once they get that close, and the potential for it their individual actions to matter and potentially change what is happening, that's when I switch to encounter mode. Soo, 30ft and then what you call Encounter, But no Initiative until the the party is actually noticed or is about to take direct action that would make them noticed?
Because I feel like thats where the disconnect between us is happening. When you say switching to Encounter I assume you mean calling for Initiative. And doing that before either side has noticed the other and is about to reveal their presence is the part I take issue with.
You view Exploration as the mode to use when individual actions matter.
I view it as the mode where we are still able to handle round, turn and acting order in a freeform manner.
So you can tell me if i'm doing it your way or similar.
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- *The party arrives to a door when exploring. Rounds are currently handwaived and isn't bothere with.
- *The players state they want to prepare by the door. I set the flow of time back to rounds but do not change the freeflow structure.
- *They each perform their preparations, if the order matters they are the ones to decide in what order things happen. They know any obtrusive actions can trigger the encounter. Any placements of the characters only occur if combat breaks out or if they tell me their character moves to that spot.
- *Initiative is rolled if they become noticed or they finish an action that would make them noticed, or before the action if it is an attack.
Yeah, at the 30ft mark I would roll init (it creates tension which is something I like) and let them act accordingly. Yes, sometimes there's nothing on the other side of the door and the init roll didn't really matter (and I'm okay with that). Sometimes I preroll some init rolls and let players know that I have (treating it like a Secret roll) and use those for all encounter situations.
Claxon wrote: Yeah, at the 30ft mark I would roll init (it creates tension which is something I like) and let them act accordingly. Ok so we aren't on the same page then. But if that works at your table and you handle the discrepencies within initiative that comes up then thats fine.
One obvious such discrepency was mentioned by OP, and essentially is that of a 'suprise round' ErnestResch wrote: Party decides to delay until lowest PC init is active and then start action.
NorrKnekten wrote: Claxon wrote: Yeah, at the 30ft mark I would roll init (it creates tension which is something I like) and let them act accordingly. Ok so we aren't on the same page then. But if that works at your table and you handle the discrepencies within initiative that comes up then thats fine.
One obvious such discrepency was mentioned by OP, and essentially is that of a 'suprise round' ErnestResch wrote: Party decides to delay until lowest PC init is active and then start action. I actually consider that a feature and not a bug.
I didn't like the effective removal of surprise rounds from the game.
But at the same time its not RAW or RAI from what is outlined in the GMCore, Its something that you do because you think it improves the game for you and your players. And thats absolutely fine.
I personally detest surprise rounds because it usually just turn into rocket tag with nearly all enemies blinded, debilitated, walled off or just straight up dead before they get a chance to act.
Silent preparation and forcing enemies to spend their first turn seeking and pointing out is one thing, but being able to guarantee the enemies act last by doing nothing is a whole other.
NorrKnekten wrote: But at the same time its not RAW or RAI from what is outlined in the GMCore, Its something that you do because you think it improves the game for you and your players. And thats absolutely fine.
I personally detest surprise rounds because it usually just turn into rocket tag with nearly all enemies blinded, debilitated, walled off or just straight up dead before they get a chance to act.
Silent preparation and forcing enemies to spend their first turn seeking and pointing out is one thing, but being able to guarantee the enemies act last by doing nothing is a whole other.
That was true in PF1, less true in PF2. And because I'm starting encounters further away from enemies than many people do, it's mostly allowing players to get into an advantageous position and maybe buff.
It's absolutely true in 2e aswell if such pre-combat initiative is kept and allowed to be manipulated.
In 1e the problem was explicitly casters and save or suck spells, no need for teamplay to trivialise an entire encounter. And they only recieved a single standard action or move action and nothing else before initiative went back to normal.
The problem with doing it in 2e is that now everyone has 3 actions and easy to access application of penalties. Which in general are more effective now due to the four degres of success. Still trivialized but it likely is due to several compounded successful saves or failed checks.
The result is still the same as in 1E, If the party is guaranteed to act first they get to set up penalties,bonuses and defences before the opposition act, And once the opposition acts they are penalized in everything they do, unlikely to achieve anything. Likely cutting down the rounds required to wrap up the encounter as the party now can dedicate more actions to offensive measures, Which is a big deal when your average combat is over by round 4-5.
Granted you can end up in these situations RAW, and Stealth is the way to go about getting it to happen more readily with circumstance bonus from cover. But it's never going to be a guarantee.
I mean, it's simple enough as a GM to tell your players you're not going to allow blatant manipulation of the mechanism of the system if you see your players doing it frequently.
It's less of a problem in the specific scenario we've been discussing, because of the door, as soon as that door is opened enough to do more than take a look through the crack the enemy notices at least the door opened, even if they don't notice the party.
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Ravingdork wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: On the very next page there is something that backs this up.
GM Core pg. 25 2.0; Initiative with hidden enemies wrote: ...So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them.
I hate that rule. It didn't really exist before Remaster (or perhaps one of the errata shortly before Remaster) and it makes it impossible to enter an encounter while Unnoticed, which prevents a number of abilities from working as intended.
The game devs need to get on the same page and remove that problematic verbiage. I think you're reading this wrong. A sneaker is unnoticed in one of two scenarios:
1. You rolled successfully to Avoid Notice so initiative is never triggered. (Generally, will only happen you are solo scouting or quiet allies-ing.)
2. When you roll initiative, beat the perception DC of your enemies, and beat their initiative scores as well.
The only time "undetected but not unnoticed" applies is when initiative is rolled, you beat the perception DC of your enemies, but one of them rolls absurdly high on their initiative check.
Personally I don't separate the stealth for init and stealth for sneaking roll into separate rolls (I can't recall the RAW on that) to avoid the case you're referring to from happening Captain Morgan, unless the enemy has extra bonuses that apply only to init but not their perception (which I don't think is common).
Finoan wrote: Claxon wrote: Finoan wrote: Something I wish the rules made more clear is the idea of a non-combat Encounter mode. The point in the narrative where you are tracking events in the very short amounts of time measured by actions, but there isn't an initiative order. I can't recall the wording, but I think the rule book makes it clear that any time where time matters, and tracking individuals actions are important is exactly what Encounter mode is, it doesn't even matter if there are no NPCs present. I would agree with that. The rules for non-combat Encounter mode do exist... if you read the rules very, very carefully.
I just wish the rules made the idea more clear. So that more GMs would use it when it is appropriate. My game session yesterday was entirely non-combat.
After some conversations with other students and with teachers, the 7th-level party headed to the North Docks of Nantambu. Those docks are not canon to Golarion lore; instead, I had added them for a runesmith playtest encounter. I had explained that the North Docks were the slums of Nantambu, because they flood occasionally. Therefore, when winter rainy season arrived, I had a flood. I altered the map to fill the roads and gabs between buildings with water. The party was forewarned that the rain would bring a flood and had volunteered to help.
Relevant to this thread's issue of the gap between Exploration mode and Encounter mode, I asked my players if their rescue of people trapped atop buildings should be in Exploration mode or Encounter mode. Their ship was already docked at the submerged docks, unable to go into the neighborhood itself because the flood was too shallow. They selected Encounter mode. We rolled initiative for player characters and other rescuers. No opponents rolled initiative because no-one was an opponent. Townsfolk in trouble acted on command after a Diplomacy or Intimidation check.
The kineticist Cara with wizard archetype cast Enlarge on the champion so that he could wade through the water with his Athletics and pick up people. The actual wizard Idris cast 4th-rank Water Walk on the entire party, but I said the flood waters were difficult terrain. The bard Jinx Fuun, whose backstory had her born on an ocean-going ship, brought a folding rowboat from Magaambya supplies and used her Sailing Lore to row about the neighborhood while maintaining a Triple Time song to speed everyone up. Idris had a second 4th-rank spell, Sliding Blocks, that made platforms for jumps and could move some slowly. The players pointed out that the Triple-Time speed meant that they could Leap 15 feet between rooftops. Some PCs simply leaped over to diplomatically or intimidatingly persuade panicked people to leap onto blocks or the rowboat.
The two advantages of doing this in Encounter mode rather than Exploration mode is that it clarified the timing of who could rescue particular people the soonest, and made stunts that sped up the PCs more dramatic. For example, the champion had Quick Jump and discovered that Long Jumps were faster than Striding over difficult terrain.
I occasionally throw a creativity challenge like this at my players. They enjoy the chance to stretch their imagination.
As for the transition between Exploration mode and Encounter mode, I had a houserule that simplified some issues. Say the player had listened at a door in a dungeon during Exploration mode and knew that enemies awaited in the next room. They would plan for one PC, typically the rogue who had checked the door for traps, to open the door and then the martial characters would rush in. But left to the initiative dice, the rogue could roll lower than the martials, so the martials would spend their first turn saying, "I wait until the door is open." That was boring and eliminated the advantage of rolling high initiative. Instead, I would allow an inciting event in Exploration mode. The rogue would open the door and then we would roll initiative. Or in a different scenario, with the party finding the bandit camp in the forest and still being unnoticed, the inciting event would be the wizard casting Fireball on the camp while the bandits were all grouped together. The inciting event was not a full turn; instead, it was merely enough actions to perform the event.
Claxon wrote: Personally I don't separate the stealth for init and stealth for sneaking roll into separate rolls (I can't recall the RAW on that) to avoid the case you're referring to from happening Captain Morgan, unless the enemy has extra bonuses that apply only to init but not their perception (which I don't think is common). Avoid Notice as an exploration activity RAW is repeated Sneak/Hide while exploring. just like Search or Investigate it generates relevant checks for stealth whenever the players wants to be sneaky or enter an area where they might be noticed. Some feats lets you automatically succeed on this, The terrain stalker most notably.
If the need for a stealth check to remain unnoticed becomes relevant, such as moving silently through an area or stalk someone through the streets of absalom, Thats when the exploration check of avoid notice comes into play. Its traveling with Stealth just as climbing a mountain wall is traveling with Athletics. It is also just as much a general tactic to attempt to remain unnoticed if you are doing things that otherwise would make you noticed. As usual for secret checks, this should be prerolled as the player begins the activity or enters a new area while performing the activity.
The check is never used if the PC never attempts an action that would call for a stealth check to remain unnoticed. So consolidating the travel and initiative into one makes no sense with Quiet Allies, Shadow Mark or examples given from Paizo's previous friday streams.
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Regardless, combining the two does not resolve anything really. Only the initiative roll counts for starting off undetected, hidden or observed.
So how common it is that an enemys turn comes around before the players when the players beat the DC?
Well, enemy will beat their own perception DC half of the time. So its actually not uncommon at all for a PC to beat the enemy's DC but the enemy still goes first. Or vice versa if its the enemy ambushing.
Quick math is that with 4 enemies its roughly 60% chance for atleast one to roll above 15. And ~20% chance one of them nat 20s.
You may have beaten their DC. But did you beat it by 8? If not then it's more likely than not of atleast one enemy going first despite the party being undetected.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
So can someone describe to me an example situation of Assassinate being used successfully during an encounter?
Rules as currently written, I don't believe it to be possible.
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Simple: when your stealth check to initiative beats both the enemy's Perception DC and their initiative roll. Or in the scenario where you beat the enemy perception DC but your ally fails to, either by rolling too low or not rolling stealth at all. (With that last one being the most common scenario.)
The cited rule about being unobserved is just there so someone who rolls well on initiative isn't punished by effectively having their turn skipped before an attack is launched.
Claxon wrote: Personally I don't separate the stealth for init and stealth for sneaking roll into separate rolls (I can't recall the RAW on that) to avoid the case you're referring to from happening Captain Morgan, unless the enemy has extra bonuses that apply only to init but not their perception (which I don't think is common). I also use the same roll for Avoid Notice and initiative, but it doesn't prevent this scenario. You compare your stealth check for the enemy's perception DC, not their perception ROLL. so it's entirely possible to wind up in this corner case, albeit not incredibly often. It is far more likely to be relevant when a lone NPC ambushes the PCs. Usually PCs start encounters with their party, and even in the rare case the entire party is rolls stealth for initiative someone usually fails to beat the enemy perception DC.
An example scenario of Assassinate being used;
Before combat starts, the Assassin uses Avoid Notice Having been sneaking closer to a pair of guards so they are currently within the range of his flintlock pistol.
He marks one of the guards, And remains undetected and unnoticed due to the text within Mark for Death. Meaning Combat and thus initiative doesn't start yet.
Whatever happens from this point on, the Assassin will begin combat unnoticed unless he causes himself to be noticed, and provided his initiative roll is good enough. But with feats like shadow mark and being able to tack on item bonuses to stealth, circumstance bonus from cover, and status bonuses from spells or consumables. This is normally a very easy roll by PF2e standards.
If the party isnt doing anything notable then initiative begins just before the assassin attacks, and As long as the assassin beats the DC and goes before the marked guard then they can assasinate. Provided the other guard didn't go before the assassin, successfully Seeked out their position and then pointed them out to the marked guard.
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The way I see it, the rule of enemies gradually noticing you across the first round is because the GMCore is written to assume people are adhering to what it previously said about initiative. That it starts when hostile actions are noticed, If you call for initiative earlier than that then the text doesn't work as written, Because you werent using it as written to begin with.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
That makes sense. I suppose my issue stemmed from believing that initiative was rolled the moment hostile intent was known and/or declared.
Captain Morgan wrote: Simple: when your stealth check to initiative beats both the enemy's Perception DC and their initiative roll. Or in the scenario where you beat the enemy perception DC but your ally fails to, either by rolling too low or not rolling stealth at all. (With that last one being the most common scenario.)
The cited rule about being unobserved is just there so someone who rolls well on initiative isn't punished by effectively having their turn skipped before an attack is launched.
Claxon wrote: Personally I don't separate the stealth for init and stealth for sneaking roll into separate rolls (I can't recall the RAW on that) to avoid the case you're referring to from happening Captain Morgan, unless the enemy has extra bonuses that apply only to init but not their perception (which I don't think is common). I also use the same roll for Avoid Notice and initiative, but it doesn't prevent this scenario. You compare your stealth check for the enemy's perception DC, not their perception ROLL. so it's entirely possible to wind up in this corner case, albeit not incredibly often. It is far more likely to be relevant when a lone NPC ambushes the PCs. Usually PCs start encounters with their party, and even in the rare case the entire party is rolls stealth for initiative someone usually fails to beat the enemy perception DC.
Agree, but it makes it pretty darn uncommon.
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That's why it is a GM Core/GMG rule instead of a player core rule. It very rarely applies to players. But every now and then I tell my players their Spidey sense tingles and a PC or two gets taken defensive actions before they have something to target from the monster pouncing.
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Ravingdork wrote: That makes sense. I suppose my issue stemmed from believing that initiative was rolled the moment hostile intent was known and/or declared. That shouldn't really matter. Even if the GM decides Mark for Death triggers initiative (despite it clearly being intended for use pre-combat) the result is you Mark for Death turn 1, your foes "pass" because you haven't done anything to reveal yourself and you're still unnoticed, and then you use Assassinate on round 2.
Of course if you have allies with you they might screw that plan up, but that's a problem with the archetype rather than the rules. Assassinate isn't really a thing standard adventure design supports.
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