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Quiet Allies applies to Stealth checks to Avoid Notice and Follow the Expert who is Avoiding Notice. But it doesn't apply for initiative rolls? What does that mean?
When Avoiding Notice, the same roll is used both for initiative and becoming unnoticed. So what roll is Quiet Allies applying to?
Are all four party members still using separate Stealth checks for initiative, but only a fifth, shared Stealth check with the lowest modifier is determining notice?
Or does the feat just not work if the GM calls for initiative? I can't think of many uses of Avoid Notice that don't.
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I'm pretty sure that this has been discussed before.
The rules are written expecting that there do in fact exist checks made during exploration mode for Stealth. Before Initiative is rolled.
Quiet Allies applies to all of those exploration mode checks. When Initiative is called for, everyone still has to roll their own Initiative instead of having the entire party going on the same Initiative count. They could still roll Stealth for their Initiative, and could still benefit from the bonus from Follow the Expert.
If your table doesn't have Stealth checks during exploration mode, then no - Quiet Allies doesn't do much.
Seconded,
The same roll is not used for moving unnoticed in exploration and initiative, Rather everyone rolls in exploration to determine unnoticed, regardless of how an encounter starts after that Initative is still rolled and will determine if you stay unnoticed or undetected.
And since its the same as sneak you only become observed if your initiative critically failed against a creature, Hidden on failure is pretty good.
So if you run into enemies while Avoiding Notice and Following the Expert, initiative is rolled and Quiet Allies is ignored.
If you don't run into enemies, then Quiet Allies does apply to a Stealth check against... whom? There's no one to Avoid Notice against, right?
If everyone is Avoiding Notice (without Quiet Allies), do they normally make non-initiative Stealth checks to completely avoid encounters? And if one of those checks fails, do they then all roll Stealth again to determine notice and initiative?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
SuperParkourio wrote: So if you run into enemies while Avoiding Notice and Following the Expert, initiative is rolled and Quiet Allies is ignored.
If you don't run into enemies, then Quiet Allies does apply to a Stealth check against... whom? There's no one to Avoid Notice against, right?
If everyone is Avoiding Notice (without Quiet Allies), do they normally make non-initiative Stealth checks to completely avoid encounters? And if one of those checks fails, do they then all roll Stealth again to determine notice and initiative?
I've been arguing this point for years.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
I keep the avoid notice roll and use it for the characters initiative.
You use quiet allies to avoid an encounter. If an enemy sees someone anyhow, combat occurs.
I have seen it ruled that the avoid notice roll is used, that everybody has to roll stealth anew, but usually play it that everybody uses perception or whatever they wanted, with stealth as an additional option.
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Quiet Allies in the text says it does not apply to initiative rolls, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful.
In Exploration Mode Roll QA: instead of the Champion having a +1 (Dex Mod) instead they have a +8. Champ rolls a 12, so the party is rocking a 20 stealth check.
They come upon a group of guards. They have a Perception DC of 18, so the party is undetected by the guards.
Option 1: party can sneak past the door to the guard room and avoid the encounter.
Option 2: party can attack the guards.
Party goes for option 2. Champ, Wizard, Rogue and Ranger roll initiative.
Rogue chooses to stick with stealth. Being an expert they have a +13. The other 3 choose to go with Perception b/c its higher than their stealth modifiers.
Combat begins. Wizard rolled a nat 20 and goes first. They choose to sneak into the room and hide behind a large crate. They are trained in Stealth, so they have a +9, the secret roll equals a 19. The wizard remains undetected by the guards. The rogue decides to take advantage of their surprise attack class feature. They stealth forward and strike one of the guards for sneak attack damage.
The first guard gets to act. They know about the rogue, who is standing in the middle of the room, but they don't know about the Champion or Ranger in the hall.
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SuperParkourio wrote: If you don't run into enemies, then Quiet Allies does apply to a Stealth check against... whom? Watchguards (who will raise an alert instead of attacking on sight) and Bystanders (depending on what you are doing it may be socially awkward to be spotted) are the two types that I can think of off-hand.
Basically any time that you don't want to be seen, but being seen isn't going to immediately start combat.
SuperParkourio wrote: So if you run into enemies while Avoiding Notice and Following the Expert, initiative is rolled and Quiet Allies is ignored.
If you don't run into enemies, then Quiet Allies does apply to a Stealth check against... whom? There's no one to Avoid Notice against, right?
I mean.. Consider two hostile parties, both are avoiding notice. Theres no initative if they don't notice eachother, But if Quiet Allies still applied to them moving past eachother without noticing eachother.
SuperParkourio wrote: If everyone is Avoiding Notice (without Quiet Allies), do they normally make non-initiative Stealth checks to completely avoid encounters? And if one of those checks fails, do they then all roll Stealth again to determine notice and initiative? Yes, Since Avoid Notice's purpose is be repeated Sneak actions in exploration and quite a few hostiles would be more than eager to initiate combat the moment they detect someone.
Same thing would happen if the party succeeded on the check but decided to attack. Then they need to roll Initative to determine if they are unnoticed/Undetected/hidden/observed before they get to act.
I like Finoan's explanation of noncombat uses of Avoid Notice. In fact, I even found another example in the Shadow Mark feat.
But as for a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid an entire encounter, I've never seen mention of this anywhere in the rules or in practice, even in PFS. Notice is usually determined by initiative rather than notice determining whether initiative is rolled.
And looking at these other level 2 skill feats, I've become skeptical of the ability of a level 2 skill feat to let a party bypass an entire encounter with a single roll. A feat like that does exist, but it's level 15 and requires two Diplomacy checks at a -5 penalty, and the enemy might just change their mind.
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SuperParkourio wrote: But as for a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid an entire encounter, I've never seen mention of this anywhere in the rules or in practice, even in PFS. Just because something is in the rules...
Some adventures have a clear and direct progression, with encounters occurring at specific times or in a specific order. Others, such as a dungeon filled with interconnected rooms the group can investigate in any order, are nonlinear, and the group can face encounters in any order—or even avoid them entirely. Most adventures are somewhere in between, with some keystone encounters you know the characters will need to contend with, but others that are optional. doesn't mean that everyone is aware of it. Or that all campaigns or APs use it.
PFS is probably the least likely place where encounter bypassing is going to be allowed or rewarded. The modules aren't written to expect characters to have the ability to bypass an encounter by sneaking past enemies or talking their way out of trouble or negotiating peace from someone hostile. And the GMs are expected and taught that they are not supposed to deviate from the plot presented in the module.
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Some more ideas and rule support for non-typical encounters of this nature:
Measuring Success has an entire sidebar for awarding XP for bypassed encounters.
If the GM isn't willing to let the party completely bypass the encounter, or the players don't want to completely bypass the encounter, they might also use Stealth to get an advantage in the upcoming battle. Getting into a better position, or being awarded an Ad-Hoc Bonus to their initiative rolls or some similar benefit to the first round of combat. If nothing else, the party could be able to quietly pre-cast some buff spells before combat rather than having to spend actions on their first round casting those spells.
Finoan wrote: SuperParkorio wrote: But as for a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid an entire encounter, I've never seen mention of this anywhere in the rules or in practice, even in PFS. Just because something is in the rules... doesn't mean that everyone is aware of it. Or that all campaigns or APs use it.
Just wanna add this one too. Since if two groups are hiding from eachother its entirely possible the two can avoid eachother without even being aware of eachother. Be it PCs sneaking past a hidden ambush. or even cases where they sneaking past an encounter they are aware off.
"GM Core p.25 'Initiative with hidden enemies' wrote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them.
What if both sides are sneaking about? They might just sneak past each other entirely, or they might suddenly run into one another if they're heading into the same location.
Finoan wrote: SuperParkourio wrote: But as for a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid an entire encounter, I've never seen mention of this anywhere in the rules or in practice, even in PFS. Just because something is in the rules...
Some adventures have a clear and direct progression, with encounters occurring at specific times or in a specific order. Others, such as a dungeon filled with interconnected rooms the group can investigate in any order, are nonlinear, and the group can face encounters in any order—or even avoid them entirely. Most adventures are somewhere in between, with some keystone encounters you know the characters will need to contend with, but others that are optional. doesn't mean that everyone is aware of it. Or that all campaigns or APs use it. This quote isn't really specific enough to tie Avoid Notice to sneaking past encounters. It could equally involve just not opening a particular door that would lead to an encounter.
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thejeff wrote: This quote isn't really specific enough to tie Avoid Notice to sneaking past encounters. It could equally involve just not opening a particular door that would lead to an encounter. And if you look at the Awarding XP for Bypassed Encounters sidebar that I also linked to, I would classify 'not opening a door that leads to an encounter' as "no reward for bypassing an encounter because doing so was trivial."
The several rules that I have pointed to do not require a GM to let the players use Avoid Notice to bypass an encounter.
Those rules certainly are sufficient to allow and justify doing so.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
I absolutely love how you need two successful checks to begin an encounter in Stealth. /sarc
Ravingdork wrote: I absolutely love how you need two successful checks to begin an encounter in Stealth. /sarc ?No you dont?
The only way for you to be observed after initative is rolled is trough a critical failure.
You are still hidden or undetected depending on which one failed if the other succeeded.
If you are talking about being unnoticed and undetected as opposed to just being hidden or undetected at the start of combat then yes, Sometimes you would need to succeed both, And also not have the other side roll higher initiative RAW.
But you are still adding +2 or +4 to your initative because cover bonus.
Essentially, Failing the exploration roll is functionally the same as just starting the combat yourself. The only distinction is that failing the exploration roll means you cannot use actions that require you to be unnoticed. Aka Assasinate like abilities.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
If you are only hidden due to failed Avoid Notice, then the encounter starts. That's a bad outcome if you were trying to avoid it.
Alternatively, an unavoidable encounter starts. Your Stealth check for initiative fails to beat the enemies' Perception DCs. You are noticed. That's a bad outcome, not only 'cause you're unlikely to be going first, but you are starting off on undesired footing.
Most other abilities and skills you only need to make one check to determine if the outcome is desirable or undesirable. But Stealth allows two points of failure leading up to any combat. It's pretty unique in that regard.
I mean, This isn't the first point we have a discussion regarding avoid notice but. Exploration activities are by their design narrative first and foremost, With their sole purpose being a character using 2 actions per round when time isn't strictly measured in rounds. They essentially generate occasional checks as if you were using their corresponding action equivalents while in exploration as clarified by a developer.
The first roll is purely for staying unnoticed. Regardless if you make it or fail this only determines if you are noticed which likely starts an encounter. Or if successful lets you start an encounter unnoticed, or avoid it all together. You won't ever need to roll initiative unless you actually plan to take direct action against someone according to the CRB.
What if you aren't actually trying to sneak past someone? You just want to start combat within hiding while traveling behind your noisy party? well then the exploration roll is largely useless unless a GM specifically rules that you can stay unnoticed by staying back.
Even if you fail and an encounter starts the guidelines is to place the characters who were avoiding notice within reasonable hiding spots, So you are never going to just be out in the open with no cover or concealment unless you or the GM really pushes the narrative that your character was trying to sneak across an empty street in plain view. this is written on the same page for how to deal with hidden characters during initiative.
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It's only after you enter an encounter regardless of who the instigator was that you deal with the impact of characters being stealthy at the start of combat. Which is the ones making you undetected/hidden/Observed(with either cover or concealment) regardless of
Because if you succeed the first one and have no intention to attack then the second roll is optional. You can just avoid combat. Then the following scenarios does not matter if you go first or not because its been clarified that it's impossible to be unnoticed after encounter starts
If you succeed the first and fail the second you are still in good position, hidden with cover/concealment.
If you fail the first and succeed the second well you are still starting off in a reasonable hiding spot while undetected(but not unnoticed).
Even if we rule that the first roll would make you hidden, the second roll explicitly uses the effects for sneak even failing the first means you go unnoticed->hidden->undetected. So its functionally very little difference to succeeding both, depending on how the GM restricts where you were able to place your character but you aren't really in a worse position than if you hadn't avoided notice.
If you fail both, well you are still hidden in a reasonable hiding spot.
In all of these cases, As long as you have cover you effectively gain Incredible Initiative for your initiative, or +4 if you have something akin to a wall as your hiding spot, You are really unlikely to fail your stealth with that.
Compare that with say, Scout that only gives your party a +1 or Defend which is useless if you go before everyone else. Avoid Notice will almost always have a much greater impact than most other exploration activities even if we just count the coverbonus to initiative alone.
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I won't deny that Avoid notice is unique among the exploration activities in that it's two parts for travel and beginning combat. as is evident within Quiet Allies, Its an absolute pain to understand as a new player as its just so unintuitive and I would love to see it split into a separate start of combat activity and a traveling activity which allows you to enter the start of combat activity upon initiative. But it having two points of failure isn't really all that true since you still recieve benefits regardless if you roll badly.
on both failures(but not critical failure) you can still recieve.
Reasonable hiding spot(Cover/concealment) GM Core p.25
Cover bonus to initiative. GM Core p.25
Creatures are offguard because you are hidden. (As sneak failure)
Can sneak first turn to become undetected without needing an action to hide.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Alright, so let's say I start an encounter Hidden. There's roughly ten feet to go to get adjacent to the enemy, but no cover or concealment.
I need to Sneak to the enemy in order to treat them as off-guard to my attack?
That seems like a third point of failure.
I'm amazed people bother with Stealth as often as they do.
Ravingdork wrote: Alright, so let's say I start an encounter Hidden. There's roughly ten feet to go to get adjacent to the enemy, but no cover or concealment.
I need to Sneak to the enemy in order to treat them as off-guard to my attack?
That seems like a third point of failure.
I'm amazed people bother with Stealth as often as they do.
If you had a range weapon then you can just strike them from where you stand no problem and they would be offguard, The main benefit is that you are incredibly defended while being hidden with any effect targeting you only having half the chance to actually hit you compared to what it would be otherwise, Even moreso if you apply cover.
But yes otherwise you would need to sneak or step to close the distance, but would only be able to remain hidden do if theres concealment near the enemy or you had a feat that allowed it. If you are a rogue you don't even care, Suprise Attack Feature has them offguard as long as you act before them so as long as any creature acts after you, you can just walk up to them without a care, and any who acts before you is going to either waste actions or take chances if they want to hit you.
Avoid Notice with Quiet Allies was very important in my PF2-converted Ironfang Invasion campaign. They spent a large part of the 1st module, Trail of the Hunted, stealthily scouting ahead in the Fangwood Forest to guide a band of refugees. They were also warning the known civilized residents of the forest about the invasion that had conquered their town. They did not want random encounters with forest monsters, so they traveled using Avoid Notice. And the 2nd-level rogue Binny had boosted her Stealth skill to expert and learned Quiet Allies to help avoid those random encounters.
The party said they were traveling with Avoid Notice following Binny's expertise, and one of the least-stealthy players--that is lowest Dexterity because they had all trained in Stealth--would roll with a +2 bonus from Binny's Stealth proficiency. If they rolled 15 or higher, I would skip inventing a random encounter.
The random encounter would have had the excitement of combat, but the planned encounter ahead would be more exciting, so skipping random encounters increased the excitement in the game session.
And when they reached the planned encounter, such as the Gristledown logging camp, they were not trying to avoid the place. Instead, they fought the monsters there as part of determining what had happened to the lumberjacks. Arriving in Avoid Notice mode meant that they could roll Stealth for initiative so that Binny and the other rogue Sam could get their Surprise Attack.
NorrKnekten wrote: If you had a range weapon then you can just strike them from where you stand no problem and they would be offguard, The main benefit is that you are incredibly defended while being hidden with any effect targeting you only having half the chance to actually hit you compared to what it would be otherwise, Even moreso if you apply cover. That was Binny's favorite tactic. She was a sniper. She would Hide behind a bush or a crate to catch opponents off-guard from her shortbow Strikes. After the shot, she would Hide again for defense on the opponents' turns. Binny's player was new and wary of risk, so she liked the extra defense.
NorrKnekten wrote: But yes otherwise you would need to sneak or step to close the distance, but would only be able to remain hidden do if theres concealment near the enemy or you had a feat that allowed it. If you are a rogue you don't even care, Suprise Attack Feature has them offguard as long as you act before them so as long as any creature acts after you, you can just walk up to them without a care, and any who acts before you is going to either waste actions or take chances if they want to hit you. I myself ruled--and this is a houserule rather than an interpretation--that if a character was hidden or undetected and took a successful Sneak action but had no cover or concealment at the end of the Sneak, then they were still hidden at the beginning of their next action that turn. It was more fun for the rogues.
Mathmuse wrote: NorrKnekten wrote: But yes otherwise you would need to sneak or step to close the distance, but would only be able to remain hidden do if theres concealment near the enemy or you had a feat that allowed it. If you are a rogue you don't even care, Suprise Attack Feature has them offguard as long as you act before them so as long as any creature acts after you, you can just walk up to them without a care, and any who acts before you is going to either waste actions or take chances if they want to hit you. I myself ruled--and this is a houserule rather than an interpretation--that if a character was hidden or undetected and took a successful Sneak action but had no cover or concealment at the end of the Sneak, then they were still hidden at the beginning of their next action that turn. It was more fun for the rogues.
oh, So the Spring from Shadows Feat but needing a successful sneak and no action compression
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Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
SuperParkourio wrote: So if you run into enemies while Avoiding Notice and Following the Expert, initiative is rolled and Quiet Allies is ignored.
If you don't run into enemies, then Quiet Allies does apply to a Stealth check against... whom? There's no one to Avoid Notice against, right?
If everyone is Avoiding Notice (without Quiet Allies), do they normally make non-initiative Stealth checks to completely avoid encounters? And if one of those checks fails, do they then all roll Stealth again to determine notice and initiative?
Yes, exactly.
A lot of scenarios will have a set Stealth DC necessary to enter a place without being noticed, and a guard unit that combat will be against if that DC isn't met. Avoid Notice (one roll for the party with Quiet Allies) determines if the combat takes place, and if it does, everyone rolls their own initiative. I see this so much, I think of it as standard for any Stealth mission.
There are also setups where you can accrue something like "Visibility Points" if you don't successfully Stealth while doing other things.
Reading through an adventure like Prey for Death (which includes a full-fledged Infiltration mission) can give you insight into how these are expected to work inside of an adventure.
Ravingdork wrote: If you are only hidden due to failed Avoid Notice, then the encounter starts. That's a bad outcome if you were trying to avoid it.
Alternatively, an unavoidable encounter starts. Your Stealth check for initiative fails to beat the enemies' Perception DCs. You are noticed. That's a bad outcome, not only 'cause you're unlikely to be going first, but you are starting off on undesired footing.
Most other abilities and skills you only need to make one check to determine if the outcome is desirable or undesirable. But Stealth allows two points of failure leading up to any combat. It's pretty unique in that regard.
Not how I understand it. The stealth roll for initiative is just for that. The previous stealth roll decides if you are hidden or not.
Certain classes make this automatic like the rogue Surprise feature, but for other classes their initiative roll with Stealth doesn't affect whether they are hidden or not. The previous roll to avoid notice already decided it. The initiative roll is when they go.
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Deriven Firelion wrote: The stealth roll for initiative is just for that. The previous stealth roll decides if you are hidden or not. The rules disagree with you.
Quote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. -----
Ravingdork wrote: Alright, so let's say I start an encounter Hidden. There's roughly ten feet to go to get adjacent to the enemy, but no cover or concealment.
I need to Sneak to the enemy in order to treat them as off-guard to my attack?
That seems like a third point of failure.
I'm amazed people bother with Stealth as often as they do.
And you haven't even gotten to the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth points of failure that you are going to encounter in rounds after the first.
Finoan wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: The stealth roll for initiative is just for that. The previous stealth roll decides if you are hidden or not. The rules disagree with you.
Quote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. That's what led to my confusion about a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid combat. I've been under the impression that the Stealth check (the one that handles both initiative and detection) was the thing that would enable a party to avoid combat, provided everyone won initiative and beat the enemies' Perception DCs. The notion of an additional Stealth check before initiative never occurred to me.
Finoan wrote: Deriven Firelion wrote: The stealth roll for initiative is just for that. The previous stealth roll decides if you are hidden or not. The rules disagree with you.
Quote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. -----
Ravingdork wrote: Alright, so let's say I start an encounter Hidden. There's roughly ten feet to go to get adjacent to the enemy, but no cover or concealment.
I need to Sneak to the enemy in order to treat them as off-guard to my attack?
That seems like a third point of failure.
I'm amazed people bother with Stealth as often as they do.
And you haven't even gotten to the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth points of failure that you are going to encounter in rounds after the first.
Where is that from in the book since they decided to write the rules for Stealth, initative, and the like all over the place?
I'm sorry this is getting really to the point of bad rules writing.
If this is the case, I'm going to make the stealth and initiative rule the same to save time and points of failure. It's getting obvious the rules design team didn't think this out too well as to how it works in play.
I personally preferred the ambush round in PF1. I get the change to make the game faster, but now it's becoming apparent it's too much rolling for the sake of rolling.
I see it now under the Avoid Notice exploration. Not wasting my time with that. Just make the initiative check and that decides it all. I like fewer rolls and less wasted time and points of failure.
SuperParkourio wrote: Finoan wrote: The rules disagree with you.
Quote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies.
That's what led to my confusion about a pre-initiative Stealth check to avoid combat. I've been under the impression that the Stealth check (the one that handles both initiative and detection) was the thing that would enable a party to avoid combat, provided everyone won initiative and beat the enemies' Perception DCs. The notion of an additional Stealth check before initiative never occurred to me. Yeah, I can understand that. Doesn't help that discussions will have wildly different interpretations simply due to the nature of exploration being so freeform.
But Avoid Notice itself does mention;
One stealthcheck while traveling (which is repeated as often as the GM desires RAW as with any other traveling exploration)
And then one at start of initiative to determine if you managed to stay undetected (but not unnoticed since thats the first one, and you also cannot be unnoticed RAW past the first round)
NorrKnekten wrote: But Avoid Notice itself does mention;
One stealthcheck while traveling (which is repeated as often as the GM desires RAW as with any other traveling exploration)
And then one at start of initiative to determine if you managed to stay undetected (but not unnoticed since thats the first one, and you also cannot be unnoticed RAW past the first round)
How does the exploration check grant the unnoticed condition but not the initiative check? The first one, the exploration check, states "You attempt a Stealth check to avoid notice while traveling at half speed." The second is "both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you." If the consequence of success for both is that you don't get noticed, doesn't that mean they can both render you unnoticed?
And why can't you stay unnoticed past the first round?
Initiative as written is typically rolled when either side intends to attack, while one side trying to sneak past or sneak into hiding to let a patrol pass is pretty similar to other examples as when to not call for initiative.
GM Core pg. 24 2.0 "Starting the Encounter" wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice). A player will tell you if their character intends to start a conflict, and you'll determine when the actions of NPCs and other creatures initiate combat. Occasionally, two sides might stumble across one another. In this case, there isn't much time to decide, but you should still ask if anyone intends to attack. If the PCs and NPCs alike just want to talk or negotiate, there's no reason to roll initiative only to drop out of combat immediately! The stealth check quite litterary is just there to see if enemies notice you are there, Unnoticed and Undetected the default condition as every new group of enemies will be Unnoticed and Undetected to you and you to them until either of you are aware of the presence of the other.
And if the enemy don't know about your presence, they cannot act against you either, And therefore there's no need to call for initiative unless the party intends to attack or you lose the unnoticed condition and they intend to attack. Because as said. You call initiative when your party performs an action that the enemy can't help but to notice.
So unless its specifically an encounter to stealth trough an area where the GM has decided that you need sneak and follow a strict turn order. Then theres no reason to call for initiative. There is also no mundane way to become unnoticed after you have become noticed. Once someone has heard a rustle in the grass that you made and suspects there is someone there you cannot become unnoticed again by Sneak alone. You may still be undetected. Aka the enemy don't know where you are. but they know someones near. Because thats what the second check is, It has the results of Sneak Avoid Notice wrote: If you're Avoiding Notice at the start of an encounter, you usually roll a Stealth check instead of a Perception check both to determine your initiative and to see if the enemies notice you (based on their Perception DCs, as normal for Sneak, regardless of their initiative check results). --------------------------------------------
As for why you generally cannot stay unnoticed past the first turn. Well.
GM Core pg. 25 2.0 "Initiative with Hidden Enemies" wrote: To determine whether someone is undetected by other participants in the encounter, you still compare their Stealth check for initiative to the Perception DC of their enemies. They're undetected by anyone whose DC they meet or exceed. So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, all the enemies are undetected, but not unnoticed. That means the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight. The characters Avoiding Notice still have a significant advantage since the other characters need to spend actions and attempt additional checks in order to find them. Essentially if the party intends to attack, and rolls high on initiative Beating all the enemies perception DC. then an enemy who nat 20'd his initiative would still be aware that they are being attacked, just not from where or by whom or how many.
Similarly if all enemies roll a bunch of 1s and 2s they would still RAW become aware that they are being attacked even if all players opt to stay hidden for the first round. a GM can say otherwise, or say that certain characters remain unnoticed despite the party not being so which is especially the case where only one avoids notice either by staying behind the party or successfully sneaking ahead with that exploration check.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Making sure to have the avoid notice rolls be secret checks helps here avoid player feelings of loss.
If you roll a 20 on the avoid notice and that is a success you are unnoticed but if at some point decide you want to attack something in the room or an ally does, that is the point where I would call for initiative.
I have carried over the avoid notice roll before in this kind of situation but it was my mistake for not making sure the roll was secret and the player felt they were losing out on that roll if they needed to roll again for initiative.
If it was secret it wouldn't have felt that way.
Oh yeah the exploration roll is secret as stealth checks typically are, Especially with how Paizo Devs have been telling us that exploration activities are the same as using the action equivalents or exists to generate checks as if we were using the action equivalents.
Anything that affects Seek also affects Search and anything that affects Sneak also affects Avoid Notice unless otherwise stated or different behavior is explained. And since Seek and Sneak both have the secret trait then any rolls to Seek or Sneak as part of exploration (trough exploration activities) are also secret.
Avoid Notice may borrow some effects of Sneak, but it does not have the secret trait. This is because forcing everyone to make secret initiative rolls, even for Stealth, would be quite obnoxious.
The GM may elect to make an exploration Stealth roll secret, as is their prerogative.
NorrKnekten wrote: As for why you generally cannot stay unnoticed past the first turn... A few issues with this.
1. Electing to wait until after your opponent's first turn is not the same as losing initiative.
2. The rule for beating Perception DC but not initiative only applies if everyone was Avoiding Notice and beat all the Perception DCs, yet an enemy still beat their initiative.
If a boss knows he's fighting a fighter, cleric, ranger, and wizard who didn't even try to Avoid Notice, why would a rogue Delaying until after the boss's turn automatically be noticed?
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
The way it seems to me once any one from either side is going to do anything that would need initiative everyone rolls. Were no longer in exploration mode.
So the rogue doesn’t get to have their own separate entry into the initiative order when an ally starts something.
> 1. Electing to wait until after your opponent's first turn is not the same as losing initiative.
What do you mean by this? If you're alluding to rogue's Surprise Attack feature, that won't work on anyone you delay after
"You spring into combat faster than foes can react. On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven't acted are off-guard to you."
And while I'm quite passionately against GMs overusing secret rolls for "the immersion", they do have the prerogative to make ANY roll a secret one if they decide it's appropriate. I agree that stealth for initiative is one of those cases, even if it is inconvenient to keep the first round order to myself until they've acted
SuperParkourio wrote: Avoid Notice may borrow some effects of Sneak, but it does not have the secret trait. This is because forcing everyone to make secret initiative rolls, even for Stealth, would be quite obnoxious. Neither does Search, But as we know from subordinate actions, Any time an activity uses an action like Seek, Hide and Sneak those actions still retain all their normal traits. Doesn't matter if the Avoid Notice has the secret trait or not, If it represents the character as using Sneak and Hide then it's secret because those actions have the trait. The reason I don't believe it applies to Initiative is due to how initiative can be dependant on the skill or tactic used before the encounter began. If you were hiding without avoid notice then the initiative stealth check isnt secret, Yes you can hide in exploration without using Avoid notice while not moving. If you were recalling knowledge or investigating the initiative arcana check wouldn't be secret.
Subordinate Actions wrote: An action might allow you to use a simpler action—usually one of the Basic Actions—in a different circumstance or with different effects. This subordinate action still has its normal traits and effects, but it's modified in any ways listed in the larger action. For example, an activity that tells you to Stride up to half your Speed alters the normal distance you can move in a Stride. The Stride would still have the move trait, would still trigger reactions that occur based on movement, and so on. The subordinate action doesn't gain any of the traits of the larger action unless specified. GM Core pg. 34 2.0 wrote: Actions and Reactions: Though exploration isn't broken into rounds, exploration activities assume the PCs are spending part of their time using actions, such as Seeking or Interacting. If they have specific actions they want to use, they should ask; you can decide whether the actions apply and whether to switch to encounter mode for greater detail. PCs can use any relevant reactions that come up during exploration mode. GM Core pg. 42 2.0 wrote: The list of exploration activities isn't exhaustive. More appear in special subsystems and adventures, and you'll often need to create your own. When making your own, it's usually fine to just consider whether the amount of effort the PC has to put in is comparable to the other exploration activities and go from there. If you're having trouble, try finding a comparable activity. For example, if the PC are Swimming as they explore, consider that travel speeds are based on the equivalent of 1 action per 6 seconds, and that other exploration activities the PCs can keep up without getting tired are generally based on alternating between 2 actions per 12 seconds, averaging to 1 action per 6 seconds. -------------------------------------
SuperParkourio wrote: A few issues with this.
1. Electing to wait until after your opponent's first turn is not the same as losing initiative.
2. The rule for beating Perception DC but not initiative only applies if everyone was Avoiding Notice and beat all the Perception DCs, yet an enemy still beat their initiative.
If a boss knows he's fighting a fighter, cleric, ranger, and wizard who didn't even try to Avoid Notice, why would a rogue Delaying until after the boss's turn automatically be noticed?
Never said it was, refer to the point about when you roll initiative. GM Core pg. 24 2.0 wrote: When do you ask players to roll initiative? In most cases, it's pretty simple: you call for the roll as soon as one participant intends to attack (or issue a challenge, draw a weapon, cast a preparatory spell, start a social encounter such as a debate, or otherwise begin to use an action that their foes can't help but notice). If initiative is rolled because a participant intended to use, or became noticed because of their actions, Then ofcourse they wouldn't be able to remain unnoticed. But if they intended to use an action that would make them noticed and the entire party just delays then what was the point of rolling initiative? There is GM adjudication for someone staying like a rogue staying unnoticed, But enemies do have hearing and waiting until someone reacts to a sound they heard isn't exactly staying "unnoticed"
Just to drive home that Avoid Notice is using the Sneak Action.
Core Rulebook pg. 496 4.0 "Running Modes of Play: Exploration" wrote: Improvising New Activities
If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines. If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek).
I agree that there is little to no reason for the players to deliberately stay unnoticed past the first round. I'm just saying it's not literally impossible to accomplish. For instance, an invisible barbarian might Ready to Shove an unsuspecting passerby off a cliff. Using individual actions in this way could be reason enough for the GM to start encounter mode, even if the passerby spends multiple turns unaware of the barbarian.
Anyway, Search isn't quite the same as Avoid Notice. Search uses Seek repeatedly as a subordinate action, but Avoid Notice does not do the same with Sneak, though it does borrow that action's effects. You make a Stealth check to avoid notice while exploring, and should an encounter start, you use a Stealth check for both initiative and avoiding notice.
Then initiative should be rolled once the passerby notices the barbarian or just as the barbarian is about to push, probably even after the push if the GM feels like it. Nothing stops you from using actions and reactions within exploration and its explicitly permitted to do so. With the book even talking about preparations being done before the initiative is rolled, Fleshing out Exploration: Before the fight wrote: Casting advantageous spells before a fight (sometimes called “pre-buffing”) gives the characters a big advantage, since they can spend more combat rounds on offensive actions instead of preparatory ones. If the players have the drop on their foes, you usually can let each character cast one spell or prepare in some similar way, then roll initiative.
Casting preparatory spells before combat becomes a problem when it feels rote and the players assume it will always work—that sort of planning can't hold up in every situation! In many cases, the act of casting spells gives away the party's presence. In cases where the PCs' preparations could give them away, you might roll for initiative before everyone can complete their preparations.
Couple this with the "mostly you roll initiative as you are noticed or just before you are about to take action that would be noticed" and its easy to see why "Everyone is unnoticed past first round after initiative" is not possible from the writers perspective. An individual within the party can be unnoticed after the first turn but thats a GM call to make wether or not the creatures suspects someone sneaking about. Mechanically, this doesn't matter with exception for a handful of very rare and largely unused abilities.
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Avoid Notice not being Sneak is quite a stretch to argue for when we have Sneak feats that benefit Avoid Notice, Avoid Notice being described as "Sneak around without being found", with the books using guidelines such as. Core Rulebook pg. 496 4.0 wrote: If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines. If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek). Thats pretty close to just admitting Avoid Notice RAI is "Sneak 10 times per minute", with devs stating that the intention behind exploration activities to create a method of which characters can incorporate their usual actions into a longtime tactic. Such as Avoid Notice using Sneak.
Avoid Notices has plenty of compelling evidence for it just being the Sneak action repeated, even it's original name was Sneaking, but was then changed to avoid notice because Sneak and Sneaking was apparently confusing.
Yes Avoid Notice just being Sneak action repeated is not readily apparent from RAW. But thats what the CRB, GMCore and PlayerCore hints at, Even with only using the player core which explains that the player tells the GM what they intend to do and the GM uses the most accurate activity for it, Then it's a rather logical conclusion to make that avoid notice is used when you want to Sneak while traveling.
They thought Sneaking and Sneak was confusing but not Detect Magic and Detect Magic? Ah, whatever, this is a bit off topic.
In any case, I now understand that Avoid Notice has non-initiative purposes, including avoiding encounters.
But I don't think it's common to have an entire party use Avoid Notice and Follow the Expert to skip encounters. In a typical dungeon crawl, someone will be Searching and someone will be Detecting Magic. Not taking these basic countermeasures means missing out on treasure at best and getting decapitated by a hazard at worst.
But stalking someone through the streets of Absalom or eavesdropping likely doesn't carry that same risk if everyone uses Stealth.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
There have to be ways to stay Unnoticed during combat.
Not only does it make more narrative sense for it to be possible, Paizo has published various abilities that don't function as intended if it is impossible.
When it comes to beating the enemies' Perception DCs, but losing the initiative, I really thought the developers would rule the other way during the Remaster. I really think they dropped the ball on that one. Giving everyone some sort of "magical spider sense" just because initiative got rolled really screws up a lot of potential fantasy scenarios.
SuperParkourio wrote: They thought Sneaking and Sneak was confusing but not Detect Magic and Detect Magic? Ah, whatever, this is a bit off topic.
In any case, I now understand that Avoid Notice has non-initiative purposes, including avoiding encounters.
But I don't think it's common to have an entire party use Avoid Notice and Follow the Expert to skip encounters. In a typical dungeon crawl, someone will be Searching and someone will be Detecting Magic. Not taking these basic countermeasures means missing out on treasure at best and getting decapitated by a hazard at worst.
But stalking someone through the streets of Absalom or eavesdropping likely doesn't carry that same risk if everyone uses Stealth.
No I agree, Detect Magic being both a spell and a carbon copy of Repeat a Spell with a clarification that you can only travel so fast if you want to detect things before you walk into them, That entire text could just be moved into the spelltext and the activity removed.
As for it being uncommon, well not really. Players can swap activities whenever they please and may even Seek while avoiding notice provided they do it as a single action. They just cant be repeatedly seeking and sneaking as part of travel unless they have something that allows for that, or the GM improvises a seekNSneak activity thats going to come with downsides of its own. Typically distractions or fatigue.
Ravingdork wrote: There have to be ways to stay Unnoticed during combat.
Not only does it make more narrative sense for it to be possible, Paizo has published various abilities that don't function as intended if it is impossible.
When it comes to beating the enemies' Perception DCs, but losing the initiative, I really thought the developers would rule the other way during the Remaster. I really think they dropped the ball on that one. Giving everyone some sort of "magical spider sense" just because initiative got rolled really screws up a lot of potential fantasy scenarios.
I think it would make more sense if each individual kept the unnoticed condition.
"So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, each individual enemy is still undetected and unnoticed. However, the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight."
I think removing the "spider sense" entirely is just asking for an impromptu debate about metagaming.
Ravingdork wrote: There have to be ways to stay Unnoticed during combat.
Not only does it make more narrative sense for it to be possible, Paizo has published various abilities that don't function as intended if it is impossible.
When it comes to beating the enemies' Perception DCs, but losing the initiative, I really thought the developers would rule the other way during the Remaster. I really think they dropped the ball on that one. Giving everyone some sort of "magical spider sense" just because initiative got rolled really screws up a lot of potential fantasy scenarios.
As said, As written initiative is typically rolled when a party is noticed, or just before the party performs an action that would make them noticed. And not just something that could be noticed. Be it the rustle just as you rush out, the sound of your bowstring or them hearing a stomp from someone propelling themselves forward. Narratively, There is no turn order and everyone acts simultaniously during these 6 seconds of a round.
Individual partymembers could stay unnoticed as long as they never lose their undetected condition. And as long as they dont do anything that could be heard. But the RAW is that at the start of the enemy's turn, then the party no longer is unnoticed to them. Most of these feats and abilities are intended to only be first turn features either way or mention hidden/undetected as alternative requirements.
The ones who doesn't are things like Assassinate and Startling appearance.. i'm not aware of any more than those, But those are certainly cases where yes, Assasinate is such a pain to use by anyone who isnt a ranged character.
SuperParkourio wrote: I think it would make more sense if each individual kept the unnoticed condition.
"So what do you do if someone rolls better than everyone else on initiative, but all their foes beat their Perception DC? Well, each individual enemy is still undetected and unnoticed. However, the participant who rolled high still knows someone is around and can start moving about, Seeking, and otherwise preparing to fight."
Isn't this a bit of a conflict though? They know about the partys presence so the party cannot be unnoticed. But each individual is unnoticed so therefore the enemies have no idea the party is there?
Not saying I disagree but it feels like that might be the writers idea of Unnoticed. Someone is aware of a presence without knowing it is you specifically. then they are aware of your presence.
Not your presence specifically, though. The observer only knows that someone is nearby, not who or even how many. If it were a team of four bandits that Hid and Snuck, you would still know that those four bandits are somewhere around here. They are undetected but not unnoticed. The situation in this rule feels substantially different enough from that it should warrant the unnoticed condition, if only for the individual members and not the team.
For instance, suppose you and your friends all beat the observer's Perc. DC but not initiative. The observer knows someone is here. They Seek and find only you. The observer assumes you were the only one to be found, and your friends remain unnoticed.
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