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Good morning,
Half of my group, including myself, have been playing PF since 1e's inception and are pretty much system masters of 2e.
However, the other half of our group has only been playing PF2 and RPGs/board games in general for 3 years now. They are the type of people who's attention span is very short and usually on their phones in between turns. Despite playing with us for 3 years and completing 2 full adventure paths (currently almost done with 3rd, Outlaws of Alkenstar), they have yet to master even basic advanced play. Unfortunately, they still wait until their turns to decide what to do, and take forever when doing so.
They are our friends and we've talked about their playstyle as best we can without making things awkward and upset, but our sessions are not improving timewise, to the point that anything past 8th level is a slog during combat. I'm the GM for the group and even thought of putting a timer on their turns, but don't want to go that route. We've done our best to try and teach them the game, but even after 3 years they aren't quick at turns and don't use tactics well despite the other half of the group trying our best to teach them better ways to play. Half of combats take 5 rounds or more, causing a single combat with the 4 players and 5 monsters to take almost 2 hours to play out.
We do have fun when we play, though, especially non-combat encounters. We've narrowed it down to the combat encounters themselves and the fact that their decision-making process during combat is what is slowing things down. Without a change, I'm afraid the game isn't fun for me to GM anymore, and the others are not capable or interested in being the GM, so I want to keep playing and playing with them, and I want to keep playing in the world of Golarion so a change will need to be made so I , and they, can keep playing.
I thought I'd get some advice from folks who've had similar experiences or advice that may be helpful.
Like I said above, the 2 players are our friends and we all get along and have fun, but when it comes to combat specifically, they don't pay attention and take forever to decide what to do. They don't have a grasp of the rules or what their characters can really do, even after playing with them all the time. For background, we play at least 3 times a month religiously on Saturday night, and have been doing so for 3 years. There's no reason someone should still be so clueless about the rules and what to do on their turn after playing so long, but alas, this is the case. They're not dumb people, they're adults who have an issue with playing on their phones and attention to detail but like I said we want to adapt the game in order to keep playing.
Their decision-making time during combat is the issue, and I won't tell them to not bring their phones as they use them to look up their pdf rulebooks, and I don't want to kick them out of the group because we like playing with them. We had convos with them but they just don't get it.
One recourse I thought about was instead of playing adventure paths to level 20, adapt the adventure path to end at level 10. I could keep the AP storyline and encounters as written, along with the monsters, but could change the numbers only.
For instance, if I run Age of Ashes, the characters should go to level 20. I could keep the 6 chapters, but make the level up milestones change to be 1st-10th.
I would, of course, need to modify the monsters first and foremost. Is there a useful tool that takes existing monsters and offers the option to lower their level and make the requisite changes, like the Weak/Elite template does? I do use monster.pf2.tools to create monsters, and utilize the JSON files, but there isn't any way to adjust the numbers based on level. For instance, loading a monster JSON will provide all stats, but adjusting the level pull down option won't change any of the stats. Does anyone know of a way to add a template or adjust creature levels?
That way, if they are facing an original level 20 creature at original party level 18 to a level 10 creature at party level 8 can be done fairly quickly.
Thanks for everyone's time!
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Is there a useful tool that takes existing monsters and offers the option to lower their level and make the requisite changes, like the Weak/Elite template does?
I know the math/mechanics of how to do it. I don't know of a tool or app that will do it automatically. I haven't used monster.pf2.tools, so I don't know what it is capable of.
The process for downleveling an existing monster is to look up their current stats on the Building Creatures tables for the existing creature's level, then following the column that its value is in up to the desired creature level you are trying to change it to.
For example, a level 11 Goliath Spider has 220 HP, an AC of 30, and an attack bonus of +24 for its fangs and +22 for its web attack.
Changing that to level 6:
220 HP is about half way between High and Moderate on the HP table for level 11. The HP table for level 6 would put that at about 105 HP.
AC of 30 is Moderate for level 11. So the level 6 version should be AC 23.
Single target Attack bonus of +24 is in the High column for level 11, and +22 is Moderate. So that would be +17 for the level 6 Goliath Spider's fangs attack and +15 for the Web.
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So, a level 6 Goliath Spider has 105 HP, AC of 23, attack bonus +17 for fangs and +15 for web.
Comparing that to the Giant Tarantula which is already level 6:
Level 6 Giant Tarantula has 135 HP, AC 21, and attack bonus +17 for fangs and leg attack with no web attack.
Which is reasonably comparable. The Tarantula has a bit more HP, but a bit lower AC. Same attack bonus for their melee attack.
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If you're having fun with the non-combat, I think one of the solutions is to cut as much combat as you can. I find often there's about 1/3rd of the encounters that are fairly easy to cut.
You still lose something -- those are often interesting "show the unique things that live here" or "make the complex feel well populated" or even "throw in a super easy fight to let the heroes feel like heroes". But if combat is the source of the slow down, and the non-combat is working. Then the solution is to cut the combats you can. There will still be enough remaining, IMO, for most combat-fans to enjoy the game. Its not completely eliminating them.
I would also look into slapping the weak template on almost everything, so to help combats run a little faster, yes you're making things easier, but each round will tend to accomplish more. if you want to be fancy, apply a semi-weak template that only drops the defenses (AC/saves) by 2. The party will move the needle more often, while the out-going threat would remain the same.
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Are those players actually interested in combat? If the problem is that combat just doesn't interest them very much, I don't think that these "technical" solutions are really gonna help.
What I am picking up from the OP about the friends (having to fill all of the attention capacity, time blindness, decision paralysis) it could also be ADHD. Which also won't be fixed by mechanics changes. Or by intervention conversations or familiarity with game rules. But that is just some armchair diagnosis that shouldn't be taken as more than just internet ramblings.
We had to get rid of a player that didn't pay attention. We just didn't invite him to show up any longer. It got annoying having them check out when we were gaming. We like an engaged group planning their turn and getting it done quickly. They should be planning their turn while the round is going paying attention to make sure to use impactful actions. If they're disengaged and messing around on their phone, we don't really want them there on gaming night.
If it's an attention span issue, maybe ask them to do something that takes a little focus, but not enough to absorb them completely? I have several friends who doodle or draw (maybe the scene they're playing in right now, or the creature they're fighting), or who do crafts like knitting or crochet. That takes up enough brainspace that they're not bored, while not as absorbing as being on a phone is.
As for decision paralysis, can't help you there. That's a personal thing, and you said you've addressed it before. The players know it's a thing and pressuring them even more might lead to guilt. Maybe ask them what they need help with, but don't offer unsollicited advice. That way, if they say, "I don't know whether to use spell A or spell B," you know what the problem is, and you can discuss it.
A player in my game suffers from this as well, and they've organised their spell list in "support," "offense," and "situational." That way they can easily select from the menu that's appropriate, rather than look over a giant list of spells.
What I've found also helps is that there's no perfect action in this game. There's too many variables and unknowns to plan out the perfect turn. Some people feel inadequate if they don't contribute as much as they can to a game, but they need to realise this and know that "good enough" is completely fine.
I get that slow play is frustrating, but being understanding and supportive really does foster a healthier atmosphere at the table. Most likely, the "indecisive" players don't do it on purpose, and urging them to speed up only leaves both sides of the table unhappy.
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It may or may not help, but when you call out who is up in initiative also, call out who is next up. Gives the player a moment to focus without the spot light being on them.
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If you're finishing up Outlaws of Alkenstar,afterwards perhaps try and create your own 1-10 level campaign using PF2e and the world setting. Put an emphasis on the aspects that work for everyone at the table, with combats either taking a backseat or a lower focus. Have a session zero beforehand, and talk about player expectations concerning timeliness, player knowledge and the like (without being overbearing or singling out any specific player).
I've been an Adventure Path GM as well going back to Rise of the Runelords, but I've really enjoyed the work Paizo has done for PF2e regarding making your own campaign: utilizing subsystems, easy encounter building, etc.
Hope all goes well.
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I might be harsh, but I think you should tell them that kind of behavior is annoying for the rest of the table and that they have to change if they still want to play.
It's one thing not to pay attention (especially with VTT where lots of players doing something else at the same time) when you still can play quickly because you can quickly take snap decisions, quite another to slow the game for everyone for your sole convenience. The freedom of one ends where the freedom of another begins.
So either they change, or they get booted.
forbid everyone from using phones between the turns
you said you dont want that but that seems to be the biggest culprit
they should make a quick sheet for important stuff around their character, the gm should know the ohter stuff
the only one with unlimted time to look stuff up should be the gm
the players *should* know what their characters can do
there *should* be no need to have the phone in hand outside of the turn
watching what actually happens in the combat is rather important to make good tactical decisions and planning your turn during your allies and enemies turns can speed up the process by a lot
I am usually gm and I have an iron rule of no phones during the sessions
there are players with tablets for pdfs, but that is only character sheets and rule related stuff
I drill my players in the rules, making them remember the stuff that is important (for their characters, everything else is bonus)
of course I dont collect phones before the sessions, theres always reasons for breaks, research and of course emergency calls
but during the session as long as the party is not split (which I also avoid whenever possible) No phone
it is the biggest distraction that can be around and even if you want to use it just for rules, people tend to drift off as soon as they got it in their hands
What classes are these players using? If they are playing casters or complex martials, would they be open to playing simpler martials? Flurry ranger is more or less mechanically optimal doing nothing but mashing the strike button for every action they aren't hunting prey. A dual weapon warrior with double slice and flensing slice is quite straight forward as well-- single strike if you have to move twice to get in range, double slice if you have to move once, or double slice into flense if you don't have to move at all.
I also like the "call the next two people in initiative out" idea, and cutting out combats.
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I'm glad to see quite a few good ideas here for helping people to participate in the game even if they struggle with attention problems.
I feel driven to also warn some of the others. By saying things equivalent to 'If they want to play, then they have to pay attention. If they won't change, we will just ban them from the group.' what you are doing is publicly encouraging disability discrimination against people with ADHD.
Even if the people that you were playing with didn't have ADHD and were doing it deliberately without any good reason, you didn't make that distinction anywhere. You are still encouraging a wide net of disability discrimination.
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I understand, Finoan, and I do empathize but, at the risk of being blunt, a group doesn't have to suffer for the actions of one player, even if his attitude comes from a disorder.
Nobody should bully someone for having ADHD - but neither should they sacrifice their games for the sake of one person.
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Gonna dig deep into my bag of tricks:
1. Try sometimes advancing the plot mid-combat. Whenever I've had an NPC drop some important lore while in the thick of a fight, heads have snapped up from phones.
2. Have the dynamics of the world around the fight change. If the party thinks they have a handle on the way they expect the fight to go, they'll tune out and go through the motions. It can shake them up to have something unexpected happen, like shouts in the distance, or the storm that's been going on in the background suddenly turns for the deadly taking both sides of the combat by surprise.
3. Attack the players who aren't paying attention. If it would be a coin flip either way, maybe just select a target that brings a player back into the game. It's not punishing them, it's jangling keys in front of their eyes to get their attention.
4. Assign out of character tasks. Having someone look up a rule or keep track of buffs or debuffs can give them something to do to at least stave off pulling out the phones.
5. Use more complex hazards. Nothing like solving a puzzle with your life on the line to get some between-turn mental engagement.
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jangling keys in front of their eyes to get their attention.
Tried commenting this earlier but it kept turning into a word vomit of ideas that trailed off....
Yes, this. Maybe don't try to fight against the problem but work with it, always making the game the focus by making any distraction lead back to the game.
If it's a choice, then tell them no phones and do something else related to the game. Shake some dice, watch and politely be involved in others turns, plan every part of your turn out and have the dice and such ready to go, or miss your turn. It's very disrespectful to waste other peoples time and your not much of a friend if your choosing to do it.
If it's due to neurological issues then take them out of combat. Split the party and let one group do combat and the other can be doing skill checks that can effect combat. This will require a LOT of work on your part but you can design your encounters to have gimmicks that require people be off to the side doing something else like hitting a switch or solving a puzzle/ picking a lock etc. Make the out of combat characters have few options so they don't need to think too much about things during their turn or set it up so they are working on the puzzle aspect while it's not their turn. Make your combats rare and more like a set piece and dramatic with very intentional layouts.
I would, of course, need to modify the monsters first and foremost. Is there a useful tool that takes existing monsters and offers the option to lower their level and make the requisite changes, like the Weak/Elite template does? I do use monster.pf2.tools to create monsters, and utilize the JSON files, but there isn't any way to adjust the numbers based on level. For instance, loading a monster JSON will provide all stats, but adjusting the level pull down option won't change any of the stats. Does anyone know of a way to add a template or adjust creature levels?
If you're using Foundry, I think PF2 Workbench has an option to do this.
Otherwise, this can be a hard problem to solve depending on what the problem is. If it's just decision paralysis, experience helps with that over time. So does doing something like creating an index card or cheat sheet of their most commonly used actions, so they have a simple reference of "stuff you usually want to do". That cuts the options down.
Calling out whose turn is coming up next also helps so they can start getting ready.
You can use a timer to declare actions on a turn, which feels harsh but definitely gives people the hurry up.
If it's due to having too many distractions around, removing the distractions (aka: put your phones away) is an option.
Unfortunately if it is lack of interest or ADD, those are substantially harder issues to solve.
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I'll leave my opinion out of this pickle dilemna.
Another thing you can try is Combat Jobs. Call 'em tight names. Maybe dangle a Hero Point(s) to it?
Combat Jobs
"Overwatch": Initiative Tracker / Yeller
"Medic": Condition Card Tracker (requires purchasing condition cards)
"Skald": Phone Away Reminderer
Um, create others if you can think of them...
I would, of course, need to modify the monsters first and foremost. Is there a useful tool that takes existing monsters and offers the option to lower their level and make the requisite changes, like the Weak/Elite template does? I do use monster.pf2.tools to create monsters, and utilize the JSON files, but there isn't any way to adjust the numbers based on level. For instance, loading a monster JSON will provide all stats, but adjusting the level pull down option won't change any of the stats. Does anyone know of a way to add a template or adjust creature levels?
No. But maybe you could determine the difference in "DC by Level" and just subtract that from every statistic? As a start...
=)