At the higher levels of the game, PCs have more tools at their disposal, so the creatures they face need to hit back harder! At higher levels, give each creature more extreme statistics. Having one extreme statistic becomes typical around 11th level. A creature of 15th level or higher typically has two extreme statistics, and one of 20th level or higher should have three or four. Keep in mind that these should be relevant to the encounters you expect them to have—extreme social skills aren’t much use to a combat-focused creature. Be careful about giving multiple extreme statistics that are closely linked: a creature with extreme damage and Fortitude saves is one thing, but having an extreme attack bonus and extreme damage allows the creature to apply both extreme statistics to each attack.
According to this guidance in the monster building rules, a level 20 creature should have three or four extreme statistics, yet the ancient diabolic dragon doesn't have any. Why is that? Did a general lack of low/terrible stats lead the devs to decide it didn't need any extreme stats?
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It has obscenely powerful abilities, so they probably cut back the AC/strike/HP numbers some. Dragon speed is famously Extremely Extreme, and the breath weapon is the highest damage AOE you can get while being almost spammable with draconic frenzy, which see below for why that's it's own issue on this particular creature.
Here's a comparison to the level 20 Vrolikai Demon.
1. Toughness:
Vrolikai has AC 45 vs 44 on the dragon.
Vrolikai has 440 HP vs 390 on the dragon. The dragon has fire immunity, shares the holy weakness, lacks the cold iron weakness.
Advantage Vrolikai if everyone has holy/cold iron, but it's easier for everyone to have a weakness trigger vs the Vrolokai than the dragon. The Dragon ignores a common weapon rune and spell damage type. Overall it seems fine.
(The Vrolokai has one casting of Regenerate, but I assume a fire or acid rune/spell/bomb is shutting that down regularly if used in active combat.)
2. Saves:
Vrolikai has Fort +35, Ref +33, Will +34; +1 vs magic
Dragon has ; Fort +36, Ref +32 Will +32; +2 vs divine
Advantage to Vrolikai, arcane and occult casters will do well here against the dragon.
3. Basic Strikes:
Vrolikoi +40/38/38 strikes (average 32.5, 0 reach/44, 10 reach/36, 15 reach plus stupefy debuff) bonus damage is void
Dragon +38/38/36 strikes (average 51, 10' reach/43 Improved Grab 0' reach/43 Improved Knockdown 15' reach) bonus damage is better of fire/spirit
The dragon seems less accurate (the Vrolokai +40 is its least damaging strike, but has a special boosting ability -- it's complicated), but it absolutely ruining your day when it lands claws and tail hits. With draconic frenzy it uses two actions to make three of those, and every time it hits it gets a free action +38 athletics grab/trip attempt. Casters are going to spend all their time restrained on the ground, legendary fort martials are going to spend a lot of actions getting up and escaping. Basically the dragon easily manufactures his own off guard to make his strike accuracy equal to the Vrolokai and/or steal actions/effectiveness from the party.
Advantage: dragon.
4. Innate spells:
(I assume the dragon isn't a spellcaster variant (thereby losing draconic frenzy/momentum) and only has its innates. Otherwise it has a deep prepared list to use as part of standard dragon flyby kiting strategies, mixed in with breath weapon bombs.)
Vrolokai has DC 44.
Dragon has DC 40.
(Prepared spellcsating dragon is DC 42.)
Clear advantage to the Vrolokai, who has 10th rank execute, paralyze, massacre, vampiric exsanguination; , plus at will Translocate 5th for an easy escape whenever he wants - comparable to the dragon's option to just fly away whenever he wants.
The dragon has 9th divine immolation (at will), falling stars (fire
only), wall of fire (at will); 8th summon fiend (phistophilus only; at will). Of these endlessly spamming Divine Immolation (range 120 burst 20, 10d6 fire or spirit plus 6d6 persistent fire or spirit damage on a fail) while using the third move for a 180 fly until the breath weapon recharges is the best option, but even the casters are going to save and only take 17.5 damage most of the time.
5. Auras:
Vrolokai has a 30' DC 38 drained aura. It can one action reapply to increase the drained value up to 4.
Dragon has Frightful Presence 90' DC 40, so frightened 0-3 in the opening round of combat (another reason it can have lower strike and spell DC values - many PCs will start with a debuff and someone will get Draconic Frenzied for damage and prone/grab.
Call it even, it depends on tactics and range. The Vrolokai can do nasty stuff if if focuses on weak fort PCs at melee and snowballs their saves down.
6. Special abilities:
Vrolokai Focused Flames two action attack, does extra ~21 void on normal (weak damage) dagger strike on a hit, on a crit ~42 extra plus 4d6 persistent void.
Vrolokai Mindwarping (on tail stinger) is a DC 44 stacking stupefy with crit confused effect.
Dragon Breath, 21d6 (average 73.5 fire or spirit, 60' cone, DC 42)
All of these have their place and are annoying, and have tradeoffs between DC and individual/group lethality and how they combo with manueverability and other abilities. Obviously the dragon managing to toast 3-4 members of the party before flying away to recharge or plan his next charge plus Draconic Frenzy is a standard dragon strategy that is very hard to deal with and one reason they might tank the overall numbers a bit compared to something more straightforward like the Vrolokai (don't forget to Planar Seal it if you want to, uh, seal the deal.)
7. Reactions:
Vrolokai: None! Wow.
Dragon: Reactive strike, at 15' with its tail also gets a free action Improved Knockdown. Gross.
Dragon: But wait, there's more! It also has Hell's Sting. If you crit it with a melee attack it can zap you with 10d6 mental damage, DC 42 and downgrade your save result if you're sanctified holy. Sorry, champions.
Hold up. The Vrolikai also does not have three or four extreme statistics. Its black flame knife Strike modifier is the only one. Unless you count Focused Flame, which is two actions and therefore warrants extreme damage. Are we supposed to count the damage of Focused Flame as an extreme statistic? Are the extreme increases not limited to its unaltered Strikes and other base abilities?
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Why is that?
I don't think it is any use to speculate. Creating creatures is more art than science.
I'm not going to agree with the idea that because a particular creature doesn't perfectly fit on the curve of expectations in a particular area or group of areas, that it means that it was somehow built incorrectly.
I'm not going to agree with the idea that because a particular creature doesn't perfectly fit on the curve of expectations in a particular area or group of areas, that it means that it was somehow built incorrectly.
I was under the impression that higher level monsters were supposed to get both the extreme increases and the improved action economy. Or is the Grim Reaper the only higher level monster that has both, hence the complaints?
hence the complaints?
Speculating about the motivations of other players is also pointless.
People complain for too many various reasons for me to even try to list.
And often, the reasons that they give for their complaints don't directly match to their real reason for disliking what they are complaining about.
Isn't there a point though? If we want to homebrew monsters at level 20 and up, this is useful stuff to know. Will the monster be a cakewalk without both the extreme increases and the improved action economy? Or will it turn into a TPK machine with both?
The creature building does say to that creatures sometimes have especially dangerous abilities instead of extra extreme statistics. For dragons this is especially true as almost every statistic is around the high end and sometimes even closer to extreme than high. But they are especially loaded with dangerous abilities such as a breath that is scaled with limited use damage but is on a d4 cooldown that can also just recharge instantly. But its still on a high-DC.
Sometimes it really just is a better idea to put the power that would've gone to an expert increase somewhere else to make a more rounded creature.
This is mentioned in the paragraph just before the one mentioning extreme increases for creatures Understanding Statistics/Push and Pull
This paragraph?
Statistics should be balanced overall. That means if you’re giving a creature an extreme statistic, it should have some low or terrible statistics to compensate. For example, if you were making a creature extremely hard to hit by giving it an extreme AC, you’d likely give it lower saving throws or low HP. If a creature is great at spellcasting, it might need several low statistics to be a balanced challenge. There’s no perfect system for making these decisions. If you’ve made a creature that has four high stats and nothing low, or vice-versa, take another look. A creature’s strengths and weaknesses change the PCs’ strategies for dealing with it, and that’s what makes playing the game fun!
This paragraph is about balancing higher stats with lower stats, not using dangerous abilities in place of higher stats. The Strike Damage section does hint at this though, saying agile or ranged Strikes should deal lower damage.
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it also warns against stacking extreme statistics that work together and that dragon already has high statistics that work together.