Remastered Wyvern Powerful Dive

[CodeMagic]

Me and another player in my group are having a (friendly) debate, and so far search has failed me in turning up any other discussion.

The question is: when a Wyvern uses Powerful Dive, do they make a Grapple attempt vs. their target ala the Grab ability, or is their target simply Grabbed more like combat grab?

Quote:

If it ends the movement within melee reach of at least one enemy its size or smaller, it can make a claw Strike against that enemy. If the claw hits, as a free action the wyvern can either automatically Grab the target or knock it prone.

The other player takes the strictly literal stance; it says "Grab", not "grab" or "Grabbed", so it means the Grab ability and the Wyvern has to make an Athletics check. And "automatically" just means it happens immediately, with no reactions in between the claw attack and the Grab attempt.

I think "automatically" is there to imply automatic success, and so the the wyvern doesn't need to make the Athletics check, and that "grab" vs "Grab" is an easy mistake during writing/editing.

I also doubt that the designers looked at the Wyvern and decided the "grabbed" half of Powerful Dive needed an Athletics check but the "prone" half of it could still be done for free. Seems like it should either be "Grab or Knockdown", or "grabbed or knocked prone".

So, what do folks here think?

EDIT: There's one other Monster Core entry that has this conflict, the Deadly Mantis and its Leaping Grab ability.

[Finoan]

CodeMagic wrote:

And "automatically" just means it happens immediately

Bad English is bad.

'Automatically' has no relationship to time or timing. Something can happen 'automatically' minutes, hours, or even days later. What 'automatically' means is that it happens without any further driving force needed.

In game terms, 'automatically Grab' would mean that they do the Grab action without any further checks needed. Unless someone really wants to argue that Force Barrage 'automatically hits' but still requires a check of some sort.

Anything else is a game balance argument. Basically your friend is thinking that this Wyvern ability is too powerful and needs to be nerfed with a houserule. But doesn't want to call the houserule a houserule.

[CodeMagic]

Finoan wrote:

What 'automatically' means is that it happens without any further driving force needed.

In game terms, 'automatically Grab' would mean that they do the Grab action without any further checks needed.

You've illustrated why I think this needs covered by errata, but not what you think the result of that errata should be.

Grab wrote:

Effect If used after a Strike, the monster attempts to Grapple the creature using the body part it attacked with.

The Grab action involves a subordinate Grapple check. So what does it mean to automatically "do" the Grab action?

You can resolve this by removing "automatically", making it more clear that it's referencing the Grab monster ability and should follow those rules as normal; you could resolve it by specifying a degree of success ("automatically succeed to Grab the target") which still isn't technically correct but at least resolves the ambiguity; or you can resolve it by making it clear it's referring to the grabbed condition (something like, "automatically makes the target grabbed or knocked prone").

[Finoan]

CodeMagic wrote:

You've illustrated why I think this needs covered by errata, but not what you think the result of that errata should be.

It would automatically succeed at the grab. Just like all of the other 'automatically {do something}' rules text.

Such as 'automatically hit' in Force Barrage, Force Bolt, or Bloodthirsty Urge and 'automatically succeed' in Ride, Climb Speed, or Unfettered Movement and 'automatically fail' in casting a second Hex in a round, using Dispel Magic on an artifact, or using Long Jump without striding 10 feet.

In the game rules, 'automatically' means without any further checks needed. So 'automatically grab' would be to succeed at the grab action without needing a check. Much like 'automatically hit'.

Yes, it could be a bit more clear by saying 'automatically succeed at a Grab action' instead, but that is a lot more words to say the same thing. And word count costs page space.

[Bluemagetim]

It the ability didn't just directly apply the grabbed condition the creature would probably always take the other of the two and knock the target prone every time instead.

But it just makes a lot more sense for the choice to be either apply the grabbed condition no check or knock prone.

[CodeMagic]

Finoan wrote:

In the game rules, 'automatically' means without any further checks needed. So 'automatically grab' would be to succeed at the grab action without needing a check. Much like 'automatically hit'.

I agree with you, which is how the debate started in the first place. With the Remaster rules, strictly speaking, you cannot automatically succeed on a Grab, it has no check. You just do it. And as part of doing it, you make a Grapple attempt as a subordinate action, which means making an Athletics check.

I think the reasonable interpretation is that "automatically" carries down to the subordinate Grapple attempt. My friend thinks if that was the rules intent, they would have updated the statblock when they updated Grab to make a Grapple attempt, and since they didn't, the Grapple check is required.

Bluemagetim wrote:

It the ability didn't just directly apply the grabbed condition the creature would probably always take the other of the two and knock the target prone every time instead.

The Wyvern has another ability that requires it to have grabbed a creature previously on the same turn, so it does have an incentive to grab vs. knock prone.

But I agree with you in that I don't think that incentive merits requiring an athletics check when knocking prone doesn't.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

I would also think that this specific creature can grab without a check after successfully attacking, applying the success of a grab.
Fighting them is quite annoying if you don't have strong ranged attacks, and after encountering some of them we all bought us some of those gentle landing talismans.