Maneuver in Flight enough to stay aloft?

[SuperParkourio]

The Fly action says you fall at the end of your turn if you didn't use a Fly action this round. Maneuver in Flight doesn't appear to use a subordinate Fly action, so does it not satisfy this requirement?

[YuriP]

This is a very bad read IMO. Despite it's not being clear about that, I think it allows keeping the character in air. Considers that Maneuver in Flight is unable to keep the character flying, really Too Bad to Be True.

[NorrKnekten]

While it is rather weirdly written or rather its not explicitly written, I believe it RAW does use Fly as a subordinate action. It is both a move action, requires a fly speed, and the various examples does state that the maneuver move you, but rarely above your fly speed.

Even outright stating that when using the action "You try a difficult maneuver while flying", So you absolutely are taking the Fly Action as you are moving up to your fly speed while also being performing movements you otherwise would not be able to.

The examples given too lend credence that Maneuver in Flight is very much akin to Tumble Through even if it doesnt explicitly tell you that it uses the Fly action, like how Tumble Through explicitly uses the Stride action.

[SuperParkourio]

NorrKnekten wrote:

While it is rather weirdly written or rather its not explicitly written, I believe it RAW does use Fly as a subordinate action. It is both a move action, requires a fly speed, and the various examples does state that the maneuver move you, but rarely above your fly speed.

Even outright stating that when using the action "You try a difficult maneuver while flying", So you absolutely are taking the Fly Action as you are moving up to your fly speed while also being performing movements you otherwise would not be able to.

The examples given too lend credence that Maneuver in Flight is very much akin to Tumble Through even if it doesnt explicitly tell you that it uses the Fly action, like how Tumble Through explicitly uses the Stride action.

The word "flying" would only refer to the Fly action if it were capitalized, no? And I don't see what about the examples makes it clear that it's akin to Tumble Through. The examples are famously the most confusing part of the action, since they are all things the Fly action can already do.

[NorrKnekten]

SuperParkourio wrote:

The word "flying" would only refer to the Fly action if it were capitalized, no?

Explicit reference is not always neccesary no, There are other cases where they do not give the clear writing because that context is present elsewhere. Such as the case in the context of aerial combat where it states

Quote:

Flying creatures have to use the Fly action to move through the air. Performing an especially tricky maneuver might require using Acrobatics to Maneuver in Flight

And in that context it makes perfect sense that Perform a Maneuvre is just the Fly action but you can break the conventional rules with the risk of failure. Such as hovering in adverse conditions, push past strong winds that would otherwise stop you moving trough them, or moving straight up with lesser penalties

SuperParkourio wrote:

The examples are famously the most confusing part of the action, since they are all things the Fly action can already do.

Well no, as mentioned you can't hover in place in adverse conditions, Nor can you move against sufficiently strong winds at all without being blown away as seen in Moving in Wind where you NEED to succeed a minimum of one Maneuvre in Flight check per round even if you are just staying in place.

So to me, the only real confusing part is how maneuvre in flight is just a way for a GM to say that you need to use a skillcheck to move trough an area and GM will tell you how much movement you need to spend for it. Same as with Balance, It only exists if your GM tells you that you need to balance.

The real question of intent however... is if it sounds reasonable that someone would need to spend 2 actions and succeed one skillcheck to remain airborne in bad weather.

[Finoan]

I'll agree that by the strictest of RAW reading, Maneuver in Flight is not a modification of the Fly action and does not use Fly as a subordinate action. So by the rules for falling, if you don't additionally use a Fly action during the round, then you are going to fall.

But strict RAW is sometimes a troll ruling. I think this qualifies and I cannot recommend running the flying rules and Maneuver in Flight by strict RAW in this case. Maneuver in Flight should be considered as a qualifying action to keep yourself flying for the round.

If the weather conditions require using Maneuver in Flight rather than Fly, then the GM would be requiring a Fly action to do... what, exactly?

It is just an action tax with little or no narrative justification. If the GM insists on this, I would be questioning if I wanted to continue playing under that GM.

[NorrKnekten]

Finoan wrote:

I'll agree that by the strictest of RAW reading, Maneuver in Flight is not a modification of the Fly action and does not use Fly as a subordinate action. So by the rules for falling, if you don't additionally use a Fly action during the round, then you are going to fall.

But strict RAW is sometimes a troll ruling. I think this qualifies and I cannot recommend running the flying rules and Maneuver in Flight by strict RAW in this case. Maneuver in Flight should be considered as a qualifying action to keep yourself flying for the round.

If the weather conditions require using Maneuver in Flight rather than Fly, then the GM would be requiring a Fly action to do... what, exactly?

It is just an action tax with little or no narrative justification. If the GM insists on this, I would be questioning if I wanted to continue playing under that GM.

Thats kinda my point yeah, Obviously I think RAW does state that Maneuvre in Flight is the same as using the Fly action even if it isnt explicit because as said

Quote:

Flying creatures have to use the Fly action to move through the air. Performing an especially tricky maneuver might require using Acrobatics to Maneuver in Flight

But it gets even more troll if you were to consider that by that reading you cannot even use Fly if you needed to use Maneuver in Flight instead of Fly to begin with.

"Ok so I will fly to hover"
"Its windy so you will have to Maneuver in Flight"
"Ok so I do that instead"
"You need to use fly once per round to remain in flight but Its windy so you will have to Maneuver in Flight"