Hey all, this is a thread for people to hopefully post advice on how to deal with the strongest creatures in the game. I'm talking over level 20, but nothing too specific. I'm hoping to avoid spoilers on how the strongest monsters work, but maybe a checklist of sorts to make sure characters can be a bit more prepared for that endgame potential tpk.
While I try to avoid spoilers on monsters, I spend way too much time lurking, talking with people about the game, and playing it (though not as much as I'd like, I've only gotten to level 20 once). All that to say, the few monsters I've seen or fought against, there are some common themes. Here are some things I've noticed that have been invaluable (some of them very obvious, but I'm spelling them out anyway).
- Heroism. Nothing else really comes close. It's pretty much necessary against anything level 23+, and even some of the more overpowered 20 and up creatures.
- Debuffs. Feels kind of silly to put this, but again it's needed. There are a plethora of options, but generally you want to keep the enemy off guard, and as strong a status penalty as you can get to AC, saves, and attacks. Synesthesia is probably the strongest option, but there are others (please post your favorites!)
- Ways to prevent reactions. Most of the scariest creatures I've seen have a crazy reaction or two. Especially if you're playing a caster, you will need a way to prevent them. Reactions only get more common the higher level you get, it seems, and the worst ones make it very difficult for casters to cast.
- Immunities. This is going to vary a lot depending on what you're fighting (the strongest creatures in the game really need players to have to have some downtime, cash, and ability to research their for). Spells that give immunity to damage types, conditions, or traits can be invaluable. Ferrous form covers a lot of them such as death effects, paralyze, etc. Fiery body giving immunity to fire, corrosive body immunity to acid, things of that nature.
- Items for the task. Every character needs to, at minimum, have their apex gear, fundamental weapon runes (ideally some well picked property weapon runes as well) and fundamental armor runes. Any mutagens you can get your hands on that make you do what you do, better, help as well (they're not that expensive honestly). Martials should have precious metal weapons if possible, ideally tailored to what you may be fighting but even if you don't know, the extra durability can come in handy.
- Silver bullets. Not literally, but things like Holy light (searing light pre remaster) have been invaluable to parties I've run with in the past. Not sure what others there are that are in the same vein, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
- Damage types. Preferably have ways to deal many types of damage, or the ability to choose what damage type. Things like shadow blast (though the target gets to choose their save, which is less than ideal), a magus' runic impression being able to change property runes, etc. anything to trigger that extra weakness.
I would love if people shared their tips for level 20 play in this thread. I think it would give parties a checklist of sorts to look at when they are about to fight the BBG of a campaign. But no spoilers on how to deal with specific big bads, if we can help it. Thank you!
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IMO, a large part of it comes down to following the lessons learned during the previous 19 levels of play: being able to work together as a team and think tactically to adapt to the situation at hand instead of trying to overpower foes with brute force.
I would also mention the importance of everyone using one action each round to provide bonuses to allies or penalties to foes (as mentioned, many options via various ancestry, class, and skill feats). The whole paradigm of PF2 is based on the concept that "the sum is greater than the parts."
Some other tips:
- Haste effects are important for everyone. Either through a capstone feat or a spell, every PC should have an extra action (even if it's limited to movement or a strike).
- A bard is probably one of the best casters and most effective/efficient classes for buffing/debuffing.
- A fighter is probably the most effective class for attacking foes in combat.
- There should probably be one caster that has access to holy sanctification. Several of the "silver bullet" spells have the Holy or Sanctified trait.
- Needle darts, along with a chunk of cold iron and a chunk of silver (and possibly other applicable metals), is a useful cantrip for any caster as a fallback option.
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I'll just throw a mention of how busted the action economy can be based on the creature count.
A party of 4 PCs vs a single foe is just kinda impossible to balance when the players understand the implications of the 3A economy.
If the PCs all examine their kits for action-stealing options, they can neuter just about any single-foe (or 2 foe) combat that doesn't have custom immunity effects.
The main 3 generics that are easiest to stack & find ways to "reliably impose" are Prone, Slowed, and Grabbed. If a party can spam these conditions, just about any foe is going to have a hard time.
The most busted type of ability to keep an eye out for is any debuff that clings until a foe spends an action to remove, especially an Escape. Simply imposing the effect w/ no save is a multiplier on this value.
So, something like a Bola Shot that requires a hit, but:
Compare the attack roll to the target's Reflex DC to determine the shot's other effects.
Critical Success The target falls prone and is stunned 1.
Success The target falls prone.
Is in the "A" good/great tier. It does key into the attack roll, so the Prone is not automatic, but it's not a second roll which gives the foe a fortune-adjacent advantage.
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Something like Exemplar's Only the Worthy being a no-fail automatic debuff, and one that requires a MAP affecting Force Open to remove, is "S" tier when the party has an action economy advantage.
These are the kind to look for, and each PC finding one will make the fight honestly hard to loose.
(note that Bola Shot combos with Only the Worthy so well, that this single pairing is viable all they way into such super-boss territory. Add a Slow effect, and you're pretty much done.)
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It's important for the party to coordinate a bit, as some action-stealers don't stack.
You need to make sure that someone is imposing Slow, but not doubling up, etc. The Slow spell needing a crit save to avoid, does make it A tier, or S+ when used with Quickened Casting.
Black Tendril Shot is another one that "doubles up" in a way that's easy to miss. It does require a hit, and then imposes a save, which is pretty low / bad on the scale of effect mechanics.
But, on save success, it still imposes Slow 1. This is also a "must Escape to remove" type effect. Meaning that only after the target has lost an action via that Slow, may they then spend a MAP action to remove the slow. This ammo needs +1A to activate before shooting, and adds a "crit save or you loose 2 actions" effect to the shot.
Not as guaranteed as others, but the payoff makes it genuinely worth it. But, check that the static DC of 39 for the L17 is up to snuff (it probably won't be for the main boss).
Or use a Thaum's ability to scale the DC.
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Laughing Fit and Roaring Applause are both great as long as the opponent isn't immune to Mental effects.
My Goblin Bard has had some success with Goblin Song, when he follows up with Demoralize, or if there's another caster with Will save spells, or in the second round. if his lingering comp is working.
With all this information about tilting the tabletop in your favor and with the need for flexibility, having a character that can easily identify any minions and their weaknesses is very useful. Although the team should focus on the BBEG if possible, having skill monkeys that can freely identify creatures (e.g. investigators or thaumaturges) will assure that each attack is maximized.