Ive absolutely adored the Astrazoan's since I first saw them and seeing them included in the Galaxy Guide tickled me in ways I cant describe. That said, after getting over the first giddy rush of looking over the ancestry and digging deeper into things, I cant help but feel like the Assimilated Astrazoan heritage is missing some clarifying details.
We get to pick an ancestry that we can pull feats from, that much is clear, but we can also expand the feats we take to include things that would require physical traits to use correctly, wings, breath sacs, etc, and this is detailed by suggesting the "Basic Insectile Flight" feat from the Shirren.
The questions start stemming from the fact that a good portion of these feats make assumptions of the character in question, an example being the "Touch the Sky" feat from Dragonkin, a feat that would allow the character to fly upwards at full speed and by all accounts would fall under the "physiological feature" feat, but we lack the main rider that "Touch the Sky" modifies which is a flight speed.
Does an Assimilated Astrazoan gain more out of using Change Shape when going into their chosen ancestry to enable baseline features, or am I just missing something here?
Well, Change Shape already gives base speeds, so I'm not sure why you're using that example? Even if it doesn't because I missed something, then you would still be able to take the feat to modify some other source of a fly speed.
Where does it list that Change Shape gives base speeds? As far as I can tell nothing about it would imply that you actually gain the base speeds, only that you assume the form of an ancestry.
Where does it list that Change Shape gives base speeds? As far as I can tell nothing about it would imply that you actually gain the base speeds, only that you assume the form of an ancestry.
Hmm. I was looking at the Monster Core rules for Change Shape, which says that it does give movement speeds. Similarly, you get the unarmed attacks of the base ancestry, but not any heritage-specific ones, which is why there's an Astrazoan feat to get heritage- and feat-specific unarmed attacks.
If that's not the case for Astrazoan's Change Shape, then yeah, you need another source of a fly speed.
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I thought about this too, and this is the way I read it-
1) Change Shape doesn't give you any speeds
2) Assimilated lets you take feats that grant abilities (such as a Shirren's insectile flight), but won't give you anything innate (such a Dragonkin's fly speed)
I think the intent from Paizo for both is the same: they want to give you the ability to take feats that grant you flight, but don't want Astrozoans to have a flying speed by default.
I think that's why they picked Shirren's Insectile Flight as an example. The goal is that you're an "unlock flying through feats" ancestry, like Shirren or the Sarcesians, and not an "innate fight" ancestry.
They want it to be something you CAN invest in, but they don't want the slippery slope of "Astrozoans can freely get the Dragonkin fly speed, the Kalo swim speed, the Contemplative hover speed, etc just by Change Shape".
I have to assume change shape gives base speeds. Otherwise you can't really mimic common species like barathu/contemplative or aquatic species. The shirren case you probably get the default base speeds but shirren can't fly by default but with assimilated you can take the shirren feat that lets them fly.
Really it does make sense for change shape to give the move speeds. If you turn into a legless fish person like a mermaid if you don't get their swim speed and just keep your ground speed you would look super weird flopping around at ground speed 25 while not being able to use your giant tail to effectively swim.
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I thought about this too, and this is the way I read it-
1) Change Shape doesn't give you any speeds
2) Assimilated lets you take feats that grant abilities (such as a Shirren's insectile flight), but won't give you anything innate (such a Dragonkin's fly speed)
I think the intent from Paizo for both is the same: they want to give you the ability to take feats that grant you flight, but don't want Astrozoans to have a flying speed by default.
I think that's why they picked Shirren's Insectile Flight as an example. The goal is that you're an "unlock flying through feats" ancestry, like Shirren or the Sarcesians, and not an "innate fight" ancestry.
They want it to be something you CAN invest in, but they don't want the slippery slope of "Astrozoans can freely get the Dragonkin fly speed, the Kalo swim speed, the Contemplative hover speed, etc just by Change Shape".
I have to assume change shape gives base speeds. Otherwise you can't really mimic common species like barathu/contemplative or aquatic species. The shirren case you probably get the default base speeds but shirren can't fly by default but with assimilated you can take the shirren feat that lets them fly.
Really it does make sense for change shape to give the move speeds. If you turn into a legless fish person like a mermaid if you don't get their swim speed and just keep your ground speed you would look super weird flopping around at ground speed 25 while not being able to use your giant tail to effectively swim.
Yknow that does put it into better perspective. It would make more sense for change shape to give certain base properties to enable the Astrazoan to actually fit in with the ancestry they are trying to be a part of. Seeing a Merfolk walk around on the tips of their fin like a horrific T-posed game model sounds hilarious, but ultimately them getting a swim speed sounds more accurate.
Though that also calls into question other aspects. Would the assumption then be that they also gain the ability to breath under water? What about the hydration feature of Merfolk/Kalo? Much of the Contemplatives feats rely on their thoughtsense and limited telepathy features, would it be safe to assume that change shape would in general give most of the base features of an ancestry at this point?
I think it makes a lot of INTUITIVE sense to be able to hover/fly as a Contemplative or Barathu, yeah. But unfortunately I just don't think it's what Paizo meant mechanically.
I think it's a lot of hidden power that would be very poorly written to expect people to just intuit. Speeds are a big deal in this game, and the game usually goes out of its way to say when you do or don't have access to a speed
Plus, they even went out of their way to have a heritage dedicated to giving you a swim speed. What would be the point of that if you could become a Kalo at will? I feel as if it would be like saying that you don't need the heritage that lets you turn into Pest Form- after all, Awakened Animals are an ancestry, right?*
I WANT you to be right, because that would be super cool and fun and make sense. But I just don't think it is, and it feels like a reasonable downside tbh. Otherwise I'd SERIOUSLY have a hard time playing literally any other ancestry.
*(Ok, ok, this is still Paizo, and they in fact did do exactly something like this with the Astrozoan. They made a feat that allows you to "exactly copy someone", but also went out of their way to establish you can "exactly copy someone" in the text of Change Shape. I can't defend that, they do stuff like this in every book)
Aquazoan does have a niche situation that gives it power over just shape changing into a Merfolk in that in a situation where you get forced into your base form while underwater AND you dont have the ability to change back, you wont drown and can still move normally, though its such a niche situation that it REALLY doesnt validate the existence of the heritage if we can just snap up movement speeds and base traits.
Im pretty sure the desire to have the ULTIMATE shapeshifter vs the balancing department was a logistical nightmare and certain things were probably lost in translation. With how things are described, Im fairly sure that a dedicated Astrazoan is supposed to be virtually indistinguishable from the ancestry they are shifted into, considering they mention that "Practiced astrazoans conceal their nature so well that sometimes, even their closest loved ones dont discover the truth." Which would imply that even those who have spent every waking moment with the Astrazoan wouldnt notice the difference. If that doesnt sound like an Assimilated Astrazoan with all the bells and whistles of the ancestry I dont know what does at this point.
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The fact that aquazoan lets you keep swim speed/water breathing when not in an aquatic form naturally indicates that when in an aquatic form they DO have water breathing and swim speed.
Honestly their intent seems to be you can effectively shift your ancestry to any other common ancestry. They do call out it has to be common which does put a few limitations in. There are a lot of common ancestries that simply would make zero sense for an assimilated astrazoan if they did not get that species base movement types. Starfinder allows a lot of alternative movement abilities baseline way more so than PF2e. Even if you don't come naturally equipped with them tech ways to accomplish these are also WAY easier and more accessible.
In PF2e this power may be a bit OP but in starfinder okay so you can breath under water but anybody in tech armor has 24 hours of environmental protection. Sure you can fly but at pretty low levels that can be accomplished with jet packs/jump boots. It does not give you anything another player could not have had access to at level 1 if they chose to take a species that had it.
The main thing they have is flexibility and the whole thing about being a shape changer that flexibility is exactly the point of them so them not being flexible would be a freaking weird choice.
The limiting factor for astrazoan is there is a lot of societal issues where people freak out at the concept of near perfect shape changers that require close examination by doctors to have a chance to detect. If people abuse the power then use role playing impacts to reign it in. The assimilated option is basically the I am so deep in pretending to be this other species that I nearly am one. Hard to do that if you are a mermaid who can't swim, or a barathu who can't float on a gas giant, a contemplative dragging his giant brain body around RAPIDLY with his stumpy lil arms and legs.
I have to assume change shape gives base speeds. Otherwise you can't really mimic common species like barathu/contemplative or aquatic species. The shirren case you probably get the default base speeds but shirren can't fly by default but with assimilated you can take the shirren feat that lets them fly.Really it does make sense for change shape to give the move speeds. If you turn into a legless fish person like a mermaid if you don't get their swim speed and just keep your ground speed you would look super weird flopping around at ground speed 25 while not being able to use your giant tail to effectively swim.
I think it makes a lot of INTUITIVE sense to be able to hover/fly as a Contemplative or Barathu, yeah. But unfortunately I just don't think it's what Paizo meant mechanically.
I think it's a lot of hidden power that would be very poorly written to expect people to just intuit. Speeds are a big deal in this game, and the game usually goes out of its way to say when you do or don't have access to a speed
Plus, they even went out of their way to have a heritage dedicated to giving you a swim speed. What would be the point of that if you could become a Kalo at will? I feel as if it would be like saying that you don't need the heritage that lets you turn into Pest Form- after all, Awakened Animals are an ancestry, right?*
I WANT you to be right, because that would be super cool and fun and make sense. But I just don't think it is, and it feels like a reasonable downside tbh. Otherwise I'd SERIOUSLY have a hard time playing literally any other ancestry.
*(Ok, ok, this is still Paizo, and they in fact did do exactly something like this with the Astrozoan. They made a feat that allows you to "exactly copy someone", but also went out of their way to establish you can "exactly copy someone" in the text of Change Shape. I can't defend that, they do stuff like this in every book)
I sort of get the change shape vs the exact copy feat but it mechanically does not play out the way I think they intended. From the lore section it seems like astrazoan have 5-7 main "identities" Your change shape will normally be going between those so long term you can really mold yourself into a mirror image of somebody and take on that identity. The feat is I see some schlub on the street and I exactly copy them on the fly. The problem is nothing in the change shape power really imposes the base identity limits so it winds up seeming redundant with the feat because change shape mechanically allows you to 1 action exact copy.
Change Shape is a polymorph, and therefore can't imitate specific individuals unless the ability indicates otherwise.
Change Shape is a polymorph, and therefore can't imitate specific individuals unless the ability indicates otherwise.
I believe the change shape astrazoan ability does call out the ability become an exact copy of a known person.
Change Shape is a polymorph, and therefore can't imitate specific individuals unless the ability indicates otherwise.I believe the change shape astrazoan ability does call out the ability become an exact copy of a known person.
They do have the "Familiar Face" feat which explicitly calls out the ability to transform into a specific individual with the bonus of bypassing general observation checks, but Change Shape itself also includes the text "specific individual" which implies you can do it regardless of the feat, just not as well as you can with it.
Yeah I think the main familiar face feat is intended as a way to do this on the fly vs people you just encountered. To do it with normal change shape the lore entries seem to indicate it takes them time to fiddle and fine tune a form like that to get all the details right. So with preparation and time they could do it or if they take the feat they can just do it at will.
The issue being the change shape ability does not really place any mechanical limitations as per the RAW just that they can look like a specific individual.
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Change Shape is a polymorph, and therefore can't imitate specific individuals unless the ability indicates otherwise.I believe the change shape astrazoan ability does call out the ability become an exact copy of a known person.
They used an ambiguous word. "This shape might resemble a specific individual or be completely unique to you."
I read this as "hey, you probably hear this all the time, but you really could get a gig as a Tom Cruise look-alike!" Not "wow, you're Tom Cruise!"