|
So I can understand the 3/rank, given the Spellcache's ease to change your spells, and the strong emphasis on spellshape (including overclock and Jailbreak). But what do y'all think? The Mystic and Witchwarper were 4/rank and had power built into things other than spell casting, whereas the Technomancer is is all in on hit's spell casting.
I'm fine with 3 per rank considering the h
Juice and passive benefits they can put in spells, they just need to be 8hp instead of 6
To me, it seems like it'll be a real issue. DPS++ will probably be fine since it's boosting weapon attacks, but something like ServoShell? Woof... your overclock only benefits spells. That's 100% of your features focusing on your spell slots.
3/rank is going to greatly limit your ability to actually jailbreak much at lower levels. Overclocking and maintaining the ability would seem the smarter play, except only two of them (DPS++ and FORTRUN) provide any benefits that don't require additional spellcasting or ruinous resource expenditure to actually use. ServoShell needs to be, what, three rounds deep before it can have a sustained plus summoned spell up and start saving on sustained actions? And I don't think that actually works since you have to cast on turn 1 to overcharge, 3 action summon on turn 2, then only on turn 3 is your overclock benefit available, but you don't have an actual sustained spell available. So you cast that on turn 3, and finally on turn 4 you can sustain it for free. Yikes.
I see I'm not the only one with concerns. Servoshell looks really awkward, and until you have a huge pile of spell gems* or reach 5th or maybe even 7th level, your ability to actually use your class features is really limited. If not 3/4 spells per rank, the class at least needs something similar to drain bonded item (you're not beating the space wizard allegations with that, though) and/or a 2 action focus spell that can be reliably used to set up Overclocking.
*Granted, going all in on Spell Gems/Scrolls is actually a very powerful and effective way to play a spellcaster, but a lot of players don't like consumables.
3/rank is going to greatly limit your ability to actually jailbreak much at lower levels. Overclocking and maintaining the ability would seem the smarter play, except only two of them (DPS++ and FORTRUN) provide any benefits that don't require additional spellcasting or ruinous resource expenditure to actually use. ServoShell needs to be, what, three rounds deep before it can have a sustained plus summoned spell up and start saving on sustained actions? And I don't think that actually works since you have to cast on turn 1 to overcharge, 3 action summon on turn 2, then only on turn 3 is your overclock benefit available, but you don't have an actual sustained spell available. So you cast that on turn 3, and finally on turn 4 you can sustain it for free. Yikes.
Nope, even that doesn't work: when you overclock, you need to already have a tech minion to target for the overclock effect, so sustaining that turn 2 summon won't actually do anything.
"Overclock Boost (minion) Whenever you Command an overclocked minion, you can additionally Sustain a spell as a free action."
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I was someone that complained about WW and Mystic being 4 slot, so I'm personally really happy to see a 3 slot caster and am hopeful those classes will be toned down at release like they should be. That said, the adjustment doesn't treat Technomancer very nicely and I think they'll struggle quite bad unless we get staves (or equivalent) in SF2
I was someone that complained about WW and Mystic being 4 slot, so I'm personally really happy to see a 3 slot caster and am hopeful those classes will be toned down at release like they should be. That said, the adjustment doesn't treat Technomancer very nicely and I think they'll struggle quite bad unless we get staves (or equivalent) in SF2
I suspect both are 3/level now, and 6hp instead of 8, but that's speculation on my part
3 slots AND 6hp is pretty brutal. As far as I'm concerned a class should follow the wizard/sorc paradigm or "the rest" paradigm for caster proficiencies in regards to their number of slots (witch and physic being outliers). If mystic and ww lose a slot, then they should keep the 8hp and armor. Otherwise they can keep the 4 slots and lose health/armor
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
3 slots AND 6hp is pretty brutal. As far as I'm concerned a class should follow the wizard/sorc paradigm or "the rest" paradigm for caster proficiencies in regards to their number of slots (witch and physic being outliers). If mystic and ww lose a slot, then they should keep the 8hp and armor. Otherwise they can keep the 4 slots and lose health/armor
I think their class abilities and feats would get stronger and more impactful for the trade off and 6hp makes compatibility with pathfinder better. I suggested that the meta be accounted for by equipment and not class chassis, and I'm hoping they did this and so 6hp will be mitigated this way, but wishful thinking until we see the core book. I think they will all retain light armor though
I see I'm not the only one with concerns. Servoshell looks really awkward, and until you have a huge pile of spell gems* or reach 5th or maybe even 7th level, your ability to actually use your class features is really limited. If not 3/4 spells per rank, the class at least needs something similar to drain bonded item (you're not beating the space wizard allegations with that, though) and/or a 2 action focus spell that can be reliably used to set up Overclocking.
*Granted, going all in on Spell Gems/Scrolls is actually a very powerful and effective way to play a spellcaster, but a lot of players don't like consumables.
I think the one that does stuff with spell gems/scrolls probably needs one of those abilities that lets you make some temporary scrolls/gems per day or that is going to be brutal to get much use of at lower levels when you just can't afford them.
I think the one that enhances tech minions one probably should come with a a techno familiar/robot companion. Their whole thing is doing stuff to bots they should at least get a tech familar or basic robot companion so they have something to act on.
The Mystic and Witchwarper also come from a playtest that dealt with the system as a whole, so their balance isn't a strong argument for casters of other playtests.
No? We don't have the final version of the Mystic and Witchwarper, so the playtest is our only point of comparison. If the Player Core was coming out before the playtest ended you might have a case, but it isn't. And if they intended to radically alter the witchwarper or mystic, they'd probably have anounced it earlier so it'd be an easier pill to swallow instead of people finding out when the subscriber PDFs start going out.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
IT should be 4/rank if the others are, make it fair and even with them unless they got nerfed but even then! If they keep it 6 hit points then make it 4/rank and the others as they are 8 hit points 3/rank only to balance out the difference. The Technomancer is high flavor but compared to the other casters feels weak especially if the game is focused upon ranged combat which just means if the DM wants to he could shoot you.
The Mystic and Witchwarper also come from a playtest that dealt with the system as a whole, so their balance isn't a strong argument for casters of other playtests.No? We don't have the final version of the Mystic and Witchwarper, so the playtest is our only point of comparison. If the Player Core was coming out before the playtest ended you might have a case, but it isn't. And if they intended to radically alter the witchwarper or mystic, they'd probably have anounced it earlier so it'd be an easier pill to swallow instead of people finding out when the subscriber PDFs start going out.
Lmao, you think they’d tell you BEFORE they had your money?!
Of course all nerfs will be kept unpublicized until release so you can’t do anything about it and backlash will be numbed by the release overall.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Starfinder classes certainly felt to me as being wildly overtuned...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like Technomancer a lot but i feel like for being 3 slots per level i do actually wish its mechanics had a bit more juice. Having to wait till level 3 to get access to jailbreaks feels really weird since its like, half of your class mechanics and you dont get it at level 1.
Getting features at higher levels isnt unusual but usually theyre either passive boosts or something standalone, so i feel like with them having less hp and slots it would probably help them a lot in the early game to have that change
Of course, we don't know how the final version of Mystic or Witchwarper will look but going just off of whats been shown so far, Technomancer feels a bit reserved in comparison, and with Overclock relying on casting spells either with slots or with your focus pool, having less slots than the other two casters might be even rougher on them since Overclock encourages you to use them to gain access to most of your abilities
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I do think the issue isn't so much that the Technomancer is a 3-slot caster, but more that the Mystic and Witchwarper were 4-slot casters with a meaty base chassis on top. That was a majorly complained-about element of the playtest, and it looks to me like the Starfriends have tuned down the balancing to match Pathfinder's more closely, with the Technomancer being one of the results.
What I will say, however, is that being a 3-slot caster might be a problem still for the Technomancer, not so much because the class is weak (some of their mechanics look super-strong, especially Download Spell), but because their rank 1 and 3 focus spells are all spellshapes, meaning that once they run out of spell slots, their only fallback options will be cantrips, which at levels 3-4 especially would be quite a sharp drop. As much as I like the fantasy of hacking into magic and want that preserved, I do think this ought to be the opportunity to move the gear overclocking to focus spells, rather than a class feature that requires you to spend a spell slot first, so that you can then get a free-action spellshape in the fight (which, again, piles on a resource cost). Not only would this make the class less resource-hungry, it'd also put their techno aspect more to the forefront, as that's been one of the more immediate criticisms of the class right now.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I do think the issue isn't so much that the Technomancer is a 3-slot caster, but more that the Mystic and Witchwarper were 4-slot casters with a meaty base chassis on top. That was a majorly complained-about element of the playtest, and it looks to me like the Starfriends have tuned down the balancing to match Pathfinder's more closely, with the Technomancer being one of the results.
What I will say, however, is that being a 3-slot caster might be a problem still for the Technomancer, not so much because the class is weak (some of their mechanics look super-strong, especially Download Spell), but because their rank 1 and 3 focus spells are all spellshapes, meaning that once they run out of spell slots, their only fallback options will be cantrips, which at levels 3-4 especially would be quite a sharp drop. As much as I like the fantasy of hacking into magic and want that preserved, I do think this ought to be the opportunity to move the gear overclocking to focus spells, rather than a class feature that requires you to spend a spell slot first, so that you can then get a free-action spellshape in the fight (which, again, piles on a resource cost). Not only would this make the class less resource-hungry, it'd also put their techno aspect more to the forefront, as that's been one of the more immediate criticisms of the class right now.
What if the technomancer has their spellshape focus spell from their subclass and a focus spell that simply overclocks something that is just given as a baseline part of the chassis (2 focus point to start). And nothing else is changed, no loss in power or abilities. Does this solve the issue?
Further clarification you can overclock normally with a slotted spell, or by using said focus spell. Both work
What if the technomancer has their spellshape focus spell from their subclass and a focus spell that simply overclocks something that is just given as a baseline part of the chassis (2 focus point to start). And nothing else is changed, no loss in power or abilities. Does this solve the issue?
Further clarification you can overclock normally with a slotted spell, or by using said focus spell. Both work
I support this as well. 2 Focus Points at level 1 is relatively strong, but I do think there's room for it on the Technomancer's chassis, and it would preserve both the spell-hacking component and enhance the tech overclocking aspect. If you wanted to push it, I'd even support dropping the class to cloth caster proficiency to make Download Spell a focus spell too with an action cost, so the class would have the unique feature of starting with 3 Focus Points (which tbf the Psychic could benefit from too with their much stronger amps).
I support this as well. 2 Focus Points at level 1 is relatively strong, but I do think there's room for it on the Technomancer's chassis, and it would preserve both the spell-hacking component and enhance the tech overclocking aspect. If you wanted to push it, I'd even support dropping the class to cloth caster proficiency to make Download Spell a focus spell too with an action cost, so the class would have the unique feature of starting with 3 Focus Points (which tbf the Psychic could benefit from too with their much stronger amps).What if the technomancer has their spellshape focus spell from their subclass and a focus spell that simply overclocks something that is just given as a baseline part of the chassis (2 focus point to start). And nothing else is changed, no loss in power or abilities. Does this solve the issue?
Further clarification you can overclock normally with a slotted spell, or by using said focus spell. Both work
The idea of starting with 3 is interesting, but somehow feels like we are pushing our luck lol. But I do think download spell could be slightly improved by either making the feat that lets you add to the cache lower or giving each subclass two spells per rank. It's especially easy to argue for this if the feature costs a focus point. Though the unintented side effect is you can hypothetically change 3 spells every combat. It does have an opportunity cost, but paizo could also just put a phrase like "use this only once per ten minutes" or something similar if the opportunity cost isn't high enough
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lmao, you think they’d tell you BEFORE they had your money?!
Of course all nerfs will be kept unpublicized until release so you can’t do anything about it and backlash will be numbed by the release overall.
Is... is this sarcasm? Paizo is going to have this on AoN, some kind of free builder, and There will be sponsored videos detailing this stuff within weeks of the official release. Yeah, they will tell you before they have your money, they are rather notable for being about that.
Again, if this was sarcasm, sorry, I didn't understand.
This is true, though making it a focus spell also means it cuts down on the number of frequency-gated stuff you get, as right now it's essentially a pseudo-focus spell you'll be able to use alongside everything else you'd get, including at 3 FP. Giving it an action cost as a tradeoff to put it on par with others means you could theoretically get the option to switch to 3 cached spells in an encounter (effectively all of your spells at level 2), but at the cost of overclocking or spellshaping, so it'd be like a deck of limited hacks per encounter to layer on top of your spells and gear.
Lmao, you think they’d tell you BEFORE they had your money?!
Of course all nerfs will be kept unpublicized until release so you can’t do anything about it and backlash will be numbed by the release overall.
Is... is this sarcasm? Paizo is going to have this on AoN, some kind of free builder, and There will be sponsored videos detailing this stuff within weeks of the official release. Yeah, they will tell you before they have your money, they are rather notable for being about that.
Again, if this was sarcasm, sorry, I didn't understand.
He spoke of subscriper pdfs going out. They'll already have your money at that point. That's one reason WHY subscriber pdfs only go out after you've been irrevocably charged for your hardcopy. I suppose some sponsored video reviews will go out early enough for some late shipping subscribers to cancel, but that won't be the case for everyone. Subscriber beware!
So they will likely not do "hey, we nerfed this, hope it doesn't disappoint you!" marketing via blog posts or other direct from Paizo media that might harm their subscription sales.
I like Technomancer a lot but i feel like for being 3 slots per level i do actually wish its mechanics had a bit more juice. Having to wait till level 3 to get access to jailbreaks
This is not true. You can always jailbreak a spellshape. What level 3 does is give you an extra bonus on top of the normal jailbreak effect if and only if you use the specific jailbreak that your programmining language granted as a bonus.
|
|
Yes they do tell you about nerfs and stuff. They give follow ups and blog posts about how they're interpreting and implementing feed back all the time.
Also, if you chose to be a subscriber, you were likely going to buy the book even if they nerf it to hell.
We're not dealing with WotC here, Paizo has built a brand on being player friendly and transparent.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is true, though making it a focus spell also means it cuts down on the number of frequency-gated stuff you get, as right now it's essentially a pseudo-focus spell you'll be able to use alongside everything else you'd get, including at 3 FP. Giving it an action cost as a tradeoff to put it on par with others means you could theoretically get the option to switch to 3 cached spells in an encounter (effectively all of your spells at level 2), but at the cost of overclocking or spellshaping, so it'd be like a deck of limited hacks per encounter to layer on top of your spells and gear.
Yeah, and this is what I meant by opportunity cost. Right now it is a free action, but as an action focus spell you may well be right and I think this is a worthwhile idea for paizo to play test and stress test because it seems really cool
Lmao, you think they’d tell you BEFORE they had your money?!
Of course all nerfs will be kept unpublicized until release so you can’t do anything about it and backlash will be numbed by the release overall.
Is... is this sarcasm? Paizo is going to have this on AoN, some kind of free builder, and There will be sponsored videos detailing this stuff within weeks of the official release. Yeah, they will tell you before they have your money, they are rather notable for being about that.
Again, if this was sarcasm, sorry, I didn't understand.
He spoke of subscriper pdfs going out. They'll already have your money at that point. That's one reason WHY subscriber pdfs only go out after you've been irrevocably charged for your hardcopy. I suppose some sponsored video reviews will go out early enough for some late shipping subscribers to cancel, but that won't be the case for everyone. Subscriber beware!
So they will likely not do "hey, we nerfed this, hope it doesn't disappoint you!" marketing via blog posts or other direct from Paizo media that might harm their subscription sales.
You do realize the subscribers only account for a portion of the sales, right? Maybe I shouldn't have used them as the only example of pre-street date previews, but my point that defusing a potential crisis months ago instead of having it occur right before sales happen (especially since subscribers later in the line can cancel their subscriptions if they don't like what they hear).
I do not see Witchwarper or Mystic losing their 3/4 progression. I could see them losing free access to their higher level focus spells and having to get them via a feat like non-Psychics, but that's not nearly as hard a blow. And even that's idle speculation until the previews happen.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Potential crisis," please get over yourselves. Nerfing universally recognized bloated spellcasting chassis back to compatible PF2 standards won't be a crisis, it'll be what they decided made sense based on playtest data and ease of converting something like a Sorcerer or Witch over by simply giving them light armor and nothing else.
If the Technomancer is being pitched with 6 HP, 3 slots, and you have to pay for your later focus spells with feats, after many people questioned whether the Mystic and WW really needed 8 HP, 4 slots, class features, and free focus spells if they wanted PF2 comptability, I think you can reasonably make some guesses that both of those classes lost some of that. Thus the playtest Techno is coming in close to the newly arrived at real baseline so it won't be a sad also-ran option when SFS picks up and you're allowed to play this class alongside the final versions of the Mystic and WW.
I like Technomancer a lot but i feel like for being 3 slots per level i do actually wish its mechanics had a bit more juice. Having to wait till level 3 to get access to jailbreaksThis is not true. You can always jailbreak a spellshape. What level 3 does is give you an extra bonus on top of the normal jailbreak effect if and only if you use the specific jailbreak that your programmining language granted as a bonus.
I was wrong about this, disregard.