I'm playing a gunslinger with a free archetype into Bard and I'm struggling with guns feeling... worthwhile.
Here's a copy of the character: https://pathbuilder2e.com/launch.html?build=1032692
My frustration is that my double barrel pistols sort of feels like a strictly worse version of a hand crossbow unless I crit. I'm built to fish for crits about as best as I can (Raconteurs Reload to Frighten, Pistol Twirl to feint). My dex COULD be higher, but I'm leaning a little more into my social role right now, and will be increasing my Dex probably next level.
So I guess what I'm asking is: Is there more I can do? Or should I just switch to hand crossbows unless I'm fighting lower level enemies?
Edit: My bard abilities haven't really come online yet, at level 4 I'm going to start focusing on grabbing Composition cantrips from it.
Firearms in PF2e are a trap! Especially the ones with the fatal trait. They are designed to work well with the Gunslinger as a class, not even as an archetype. At most a fighter with the gunslinger archetype.
This is because they rely on both the gunslinger's high reload speed and critical hits. If you don't meet either of those, they become subpar.
Other than that, it's better to use crossbows or repeating weapons.
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Well, he is playing a Gunslinger as a class, bard is the archetype.
Fishing for crits depends a lot on the enemies you are fighting and the group composition, if you face pl+3 and don't have anybody providing you with offguard (like grapple or trip) you will struggle.
We had this problem in Outlaws of Alkenstar, as many of the relevant fights were against higher level enemies.
Not maximizing your dexterity is a bad idea i fear, as you need every point of attack bonus to trigger fatal.
One thing i liked on our gunslinger was fake out, together with cooperative nature it provided lots of bonuses for very little cost.
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As others said: firearms tend to work best if you are crit fishing. Doing that well requires some help from your group since you need attack bonuses on yourself and AC penalties inflicted on the enemy to help you crit more often. You can do some of it yourself using your Gunslinger abilities to create a diversion/demoralize, but the class works best when you have some team assistance (someone in the party who can Trip/Grab/Cast Fear/Bless/etc will REALLY help you out).
This also means you need to lean into it. Not having max DEX is lowering your crit chance, and when your weapon is reliant on Fatal for big damage, that is a very costly decision.
I'm not exactly sure what you're intending to get out of Bard. Since you have Battle Medicine, Medic would be a good archetype as Doctors Visitation at level 4 would let you move and battle medicine as a single action, and Gunslingers are action intensive so anywhere you can save actions is helpful. (That said, since you are a Maestro Bard, Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition will be great later when you can get it online.)
I think I remember your first thread about this character. It's been awhile, I hope Outlaws of Alkenstar is going well. Anyway, my thoughts
-Double Barreled Weapons are very niche, I don't reccomend them except maybe as an offhand weapon for a paired shots build. As is, that (effectively) 3d8 crit isn't standing out compared to a 2d6+1d10 crit from a shortbow, and your regular 1d4 pistol shots aren't inpressive either. Sure you have slinger's precision, but every non-fighter has their own damage buff to use. You'd be better served by a dueling pistol for better damage and range.
- You really want to boost DEX asap, and not being able to hit +5 by the end of the campaign is going to be awkward.
-It might be helpful to find a way for your party to reliably trip allies so you can combine the circumstance penalty from off guard with the status penalty from frightened via demoralize.
-Pistol Twirl is a weird feat. If your GM allows you to use it with raconteur's reload (I could swear that was an option at some point, but that apprars to be wishful thinking on my part), I could see it being decent, but if not, I think fake out would be more useful. It would also make that second barrel actually good for something.
We had this problem in Outlaws of Alkenstar, as many of the relevant fights were against higher level enemies.
COINCIDENTALLY we're ALSO playing Outlaws and having this exact same problem. Almost all of the fights so far have been against small numbers of higher level enemies who hit real hard and have high AC. We're level 2 and the bridge fight had enemies throwing a cool 1d8+6 damage at us every time they hit, which has been its own frustration >:c
I'm not exactly sure what you're intending to get out of Bard. Since you have Battle Medicine, Medic would be a good archetype as Doctors Visitation at level 4 would let you move and battle medicine as a single action, and Gunslingers are action intensive so anywhere you can save actions is helpful. (That said, since you are a Maestro Bard, Courageous Anthem + Lingering Composition will be great later when you can get it online.)
That's my plan, actually. I only took Battle Medicine because the player who was our dedicated medic ended up not being able to play, and we needed SOMEONE who could patch us up because PF2 fights are brutal. My plan with Bard was to get the party buff compositions.
It's been awhile, I hope Outlaws of Alkenstar is going well. Anyway, my thoughts
It's been going... alright. As per usual I feel like the fights are a bit brutal, but I've been enjoying my character and the party dynamics.
I mostly took the double barreled pistols for aesthetics and the fact that I can fire multiple times without reloading, but "Dual weapon reload" does not, in fact, let me reload multiple weapons so it's not been as useful as I'd hoped.
I will be able to get +5 by the end of the campaign. We're using gradual stat bonuses, so I can hit +5 as early as... level 6? or 7?
I'll bring up tripping with my party, I think we might have at least one person who can lean into that.
Fake Out is... interesting, but Aid doesn't... ever seem useful to me? It's a high DC for what usually amounts to a +1 bonus, and failing actively imposes a penalty. Pistol Twirl hasn't been especially useful for my crit fishing exploits, but it is an effective 1 action debuff before a shot. I THOUGHT frightened imposed an AC penalty, but I guess I was misremembering.
No, frightened imposes an AC penalty. I'm sorry if I gave the impression it didn't.
Fake out only imposes a penalty on a critical failure, and a lot of groups operate on the assumption that since the feat does not list the DC, you use the default DC of 15, which is very easy for a Swashbuckler to hit or crit on. If your GM uses the enemy AC as the DC, it's less useful but still a decent way to provide support. Although if the AP is as dense with high level enemies as you've said, going for only 1 attack a round may not be such a bad plan, making pistol twirl more attractive.
No, frightened imposes an AC penalty. I'm sorry if I gave the impression it didn't.
It doesn't seem to? The AONPRD page for it just says checks and DCs
You're gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to this value to all your checks and DCs. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.
Maybe I'll consider Fake Out, though, since it would let me aid allies in rolling better, and my allies are much better damage machines than I am.
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No, frightened imposes an AC penalty. I'm sorry if I gave the impression it didn't.It doesn't seem to? The AONPRD page for it just says checks and DCs
Maybe I'll consider Fake Out, though, since it would let me aid allies in rolling better, and my allies are much better damage machines than I am.
You're gripped by fear and struggle to control your nerves. The frightened condition always includes a value. You take a status penalty equal to this value to all your checks and DCs. Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1.
AC is a DC.
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Fake out is rolled against DC 15, as it is an Aid action ("Make an attack roll to Aid the triggering attack"). If you have cooperative nature, you add an additional +4 to your gunslinger proficiency.
I suggest to get a gauntlet bow, as fake out does not require you to actually fire your weapon, you only need to have a loaded gun or crossbow - which the gauntlet bow provides.
Alkenstar (as a city) has a lot of clockwork constructs, which do not like electricity. Having matching ammunition may improve your damage considerably, at least in some fights.
Getting a good number of debuffs stacked on eachother is a key to a lot of difficult fights, and if you can get some teamwork going it will benefit all of you.
Honestly, and ironically, I always thought the gunslinger did better (more consistent) when using crossbow rather than actual guns.
AC is a DC.
OH. Y'know... that makes sense.
Fake out is rolled against DC 15, as it is an Aid action ("Make an attack roll to Aid the triggering attack"). If you have cooperative nature, you add an additional +4 to your gunslinger proficiency.
I suggest to get a gauntlet bow, as fake out does not require you to actually fire your weapon, you only need to have a loaded gun or crossbow - which the gauntlet bow provides.Alkenstar (as a city) has a lot of clockwork constructs, which do not like electricity. Having matching ammunition may improve your damage considerably, at least in some fights.
Getting a good number of debuffs stacked on eachother is a key to a lot of difficult fights, and if you can get some teamwork going it will benefit all of you.
What is Cooperative Nature? a Feat?
I'll definitely look into a wrist crossbow and some electric ammo.
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Cooperative Nature is a human ancestry feat, so not accessible to your Kholo without adopted ancestry. I just mentioned it as it relates to aid.
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Cooperative Nature is a human ancestry feat, so not accessible to your Kholo without adopted ancestry. I just mentioned it as it relates to aid.
But a Kholo is probably better off just taking the Pack Hunter Ancestry Feat. It only gives a +2 to checks to Aid (though it also applies to checks to Aid *you*), but doesn't require the additional feat for Adopted Ancestry. Unless there are *more* Human feats you want, of course.