Does Slay Living (or other damaging Death effects) apply damage before or after the natural attack or spellstrike damage it was delivered by?


Rules Questions


A question has come up in our group. I had a hag cleric who critically hit with a Slay Living spell via her claw natural attack. This ended up doing 24d6+18 (slay living) + 2d6+28 (claw attack) on the PCs failed save.

So my question is this, which damage occurred first? I did just enough damage to drop him below his negative Con by combining both sets of damage. The claw is not a death effect, but Slay Living is. The party cleric was able to cast Breath of Life on him and the debate ensued.

Slay Living is a death effect and creatures killed by Death Effects cannot be raised by Breath of Life nor Raise Dead.

So, is this character unable to be raised by those spells, or could it occur? The combined damage was enough to kill him, but separately, neither could kill him outright.


We need to clear up something first.

Slay Living grants you a touch attack as part of casting the spell to deliver it (thats an entire standard action). Unless the Hag is holding the charge (from a previous round), used a quickened spell like effect, or has an ability similar to Spell Strike, they won't be able to make a claw attack AND deliver the spell at the same time.

Assuming that no rules were misapplied leading into the attack, the hag must hit the target first in order to deliver the spell. That means rolling the claw attack (and damage for the claw attack) and then applying spell resistance (if any) and the fortitude save, before assigning damage from the spell.

Narratively speaking, it all happened in a moment. Following an order of operations, the player character was slain by loss of hit points from the Slay Living spell, and thus Breath of Life is insufficient to bring them back to life.

If rules were misapplied in the delivering of the spell (as noted above), it might be fair to just let the Breath of Life spell function this once.


Assume the rules were applied correctly.

Yes, considering that the spell was delivered with a melee attack and not a melee touch attack, it seems that the correct ruling is to allow the physical damage to occur first and the spell damage to occur after. But I cannot find a rule anywhere that is to that point.


As you did not specify HOW the hag was delivering the spell (Spell Strike or Holding the Charge), we will default to the most likely ruling that is to be applied in the situation. This covers a quickened spell 'effect' as well.

Holding the Charge wrote:
Holding the Charge: If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack normally doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack. If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

Attack -> Weapon Damage -> Spell Effect -> Spell Resolution

This concludes in the death of the player character via a death effect.


I would say that the damage occurs simultaneously. The wording of holding a charge uses the word and not then. To me that indicates all damage occurs at the same time.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
I would say that the damage occurs simultaneously. The wording of holding a charge uses the word and not then. To me that indicates all damage occurs at the same time.

I agree that it can be interpreted that way as well, though that does nothing to resolve the issue being discussed. The spell damage certainly does not occur BEFORE the weapon damage, as the weapon attack must land for damage to even occur (even if reduced by damage reduction, if any).

Whether simultaneous or not, an order must be decided so that interactions with other effects (like Breath of Life) can be arbitrated. To that end, I lean in favor of the weapon damage resolving first, as the spell must still interact with spell resistance (if any) and a saving throw.


RAW is simplistic.
If a creature with Con:18(+4), HP:90, at full health takes 28 lethal damage, 81 (lethal)[death effect] damage from a single attack without extenuating circumstances(aka magical protections) then they are dead and I believe most GMs would agree it was a death effect (as it was the bulk of the damage).

What can happen in a similar instance is 28 lethal and 81 [fire] with Fire Resistance 10 and DR 5/- would be a maximum of 94 damage.

Your GM has to resolve anything of finer detail.

Two separate attacks resolve in sequential order.

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