Creative Director
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We haven't yet provided full and exact details on the locations and story progression and all that for Hell's Destiny (or Hellbreakers, for that matter) because those are spoilers. Most of what we've said are:
Hellbreakers: Focuses on the eastern side of things and mostly on the Isger/Cheliax confrontation.
Hell's Destiny: Focuses on the bigger picture stuff, starts in Corentyn but has a LOT of travel throughout Cheliax and beyond. I don't believe we've listed all of the exact locations and the like that feature in this, again, because of spoilers... but also becasue we haven't really had a chance to do a big deep dive preview or chat about these Adventure Paths on their own... it's always been in the context of larger picture stuff with bigger overarching topics (be it the Hellfire Crises meta-event or the adjustments to the Adventure Path going from softcover to hardcover).
As with all Adventure Paths, we'll have much more to say once we get closer to when they're actually coming out. Which in this case is still months away in the next year.
One thing mentioned in a different section of the book that could prove a very unexpected twist is that Nirmathas is actively trying to align itself with Cheliax in the hope they’ll provide protection from Molthune. This could mean that in the event of a possible escalation Molthune actually sides with Andoran while the Encarthan Alliance is pulled in to support Cheliax. Though I doubt that will actually happen because the other Alliance members have no reason to agree to that proposal.
This is very wild speculation, but technically the possibility is there. So Nirmathas has a direct portal to Golarion's moon. On the moon side of that portal are bunch of Nocticula worshipping succubi, several of which are quite powerful. Now we haven’t checked in with these succubi sense The Moonscar, so we don't know how they have reacted to Nocticula's ascension to full godhood, but... there could be an army of Nocticula worshipping succubi ready to ally with Nirmathas, if Nirmathas can provide the right incentives.
Andoran allying by accident with a bunch of Daemons would be an interesting twist.
Official announcement of Lost Omens Hellfire Dispatches, as well as the sequel AP to Hellbreakers - Hell's Destiny.
Any chance we finally get the Devil eidolon Summoner in the Lost Omens Hellfire Dispatches?
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Well well, come May, Vidrian will have an ironclad cassus belli against Cheliax if it wants to use it.
"Meh.
"Rogue captain, that's all. He deserves whatever punishment he gets from the PFS or Vidria. His attack was not sanctioned by House Thrune or any official from Cheliax.
"Cheliax completely disavows him." - Her Infernal Majestrix Abrogail II
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Well well, come May, Vidrian will have an ironclad cassus belli against Cheliax if it wants to use it."Meh.
"Rogue captain, that's all. He deserves whatever punishment he gets from the PFS or Vidria. His attack was not sanctioned by House Thrune or any official from Cheliax.
"Cheliax completely disavows him." - Her Infernal Majestrix Abrogail II
"I don't believe you, just like you didn't believe Marusek when she tried exactly the same gambit in Breechhill."
–Avarneus| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm just surprised they still let Pathfinders even have a Lodge there, given their Society previous gleefully participated in the old regime's 1936 Munich games during Viridian's civil war.
Well well, come May, Vidrian will have an ironclad cassus belli against Cheliax if it wants to use it.
The big question is do they want to use it. I see Vidrian and Andoran being allies, but the issue is the shackles. One of Vidrian's many rivals are the shackles pirates. and any conflict with Cheliax would have to go through them. And while the Pirates don't like Cheliax, they wouldn't want Vidrian to just go through them without paying tribute, which is what caused the conflict with them to begin with.
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Well well, come May, Vidrian will have an ironclad cassus belli against Cheliax if it wants to use it.The big question is do they want to use it. I see Vidrian and Andoran being allies, but the issue is the shackles. One of Vidrian's many rivals are the shackles pirates. and any conflict with Cheliax would have to go through them. And while the Pirates don't like Cheliax, they wouldn't want Vidrian to just go through them without paying tribute, which is what caused the conflict with them to begin with.
They may or may not actually get a say. The Third Corsair War has been ongoing for the better part of a decade, and has intensified as of Battlecry!. If the Mbe'ke haven't winnowed the pirates' fleet down, then they have surely drawn their attention.
Weren't the "final boss" of the skull&shackles AP chellish corsairs? Honestly, I can see the shakles letting vidrian ships pass for free as long as they pay a tribute (on the spoils of war) on the way back, it's a win-win for them.
However, the fact that pretty much everyone around Cheliax (appart from Nidal) have every reason to help the Andoran side make me think Cheliax will probably have a big ace up their sleeves in that war. Either some magic thingy that can put all of their foes on the backfoot at once (like some hell portal openning way behind the ennemy lines with armies of devils ready to step out of them), or they have a "surprise ally" that's gonna join the war on their side (or at least overtly support them) that people aren't expecting. Given the "world war" thing going on, I expect it to be more the latter.
I feel like out of the country that could reveal themselves as Chelliax ally in this war, those in the golden road are the most likely to be it (mostly because they haven't really been active in PF2 "story" so far, while the Avistani country have had a lot to deal with these past few years). While it's my least favorite pick, I think Rahadoum is probably the country most likely to be "it", simply because it's closest to Cheliax and the whole antireligious angle make them easy to "fit" as ally to the diabolist as well as being a "not that bad Cheliax ally" that could be swayed away from supporting them by the PC by engaging in politicking (while parties like Nidal are jsut straight villains).
Qadira is the other big obvious choice, simply because on the contrary, they are the ones most distant from Cheliax proper, and thus all the horrors of diabolism happen "out of sight" for them, and supporting Cheliax in a bid to weaken andoran and by extension Taldor is sort of an obvious choice. And like Rahadoum, there can easily be a module/adventure in which the PCs have to do some politicking to get them to back off of the alliance without just jumping to "kill them" as the easiest option.
Appart from those two, the other parties I can see working with Cheliax would be Katapesh (because money), and Thuvia (not only because money, but also because Thuvia don't have a central government and is more a loose alliance of city state, and thus there can easily be a situation where some of them are swayed to Cheliax while some are reluctant/unwilling to support them and the thing devolving into a mini civil war in the country).
The climactic fleet battle was against Cheliax, where "rise through the ranks and build a fleet to rise through the ranks to build a bigger fleet, etc." forms the party's main endeavor throughout the AP. And yeah, a major, power-shifting event vs. some of the highest level NPCs on the seas. Failing there would have rewritten history. At some table's Golarions it might well be so, especially who rose to rule afterward. It's in that afterward, during the final "rise through the ranks" portion, where the PCs fight the final boss. To me fighting him felt like a diversion/reward/denouement more than part of the main drama itself.
Anyway, when I read about the Chelaxian navy nowadays, I recall how they should probably still be decimated. Especially when their military's embroiled in so many conflicts that would require the country's labor, wood, and troops. I'd like the impact to still resonate, even if Paizo presents a solution that lessens that.
Heck, I'd like to see the Shackles (albeit likely on a captain by captain basis) harry Cheliax more now. There should be many veterans riding off the glory of driving them back a few decades ago, some wanting a bit more blood, or young blades wanting to follow the same path.
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Anyway, when I read about the Chelaxian navy nowadays, I recall how they should probably still be decimated. Especially when their military's embroiled in so many conflicts that would require the country's labor, wood, and troops. I'd like the impact to still resonate, even if Paizo presents a solution that lessens that.
The Chelaxian fleet in From Hell's Heart numbered between about 30 and about 40 ships of various kinds (about one fifth to one third the size of the Spanish Armada, depending on what figures you accept for both fleets), and it was lost fourteen years ago. There has been ample time, budget, materials, and reason for them to have been replaced with more modern units.
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One imagines though that the Naval theater still largely favors Andoran, who didn't suffer any similar setback and has basically oriented their economy around shipbuilding.
Of course "Andoran is a naval power" is the reason Cheliax would invest heavily in rebuilding their navy.
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One imagines though that the Naval theater still largely favors Andoran, who didn't suffer any similar setback and has basically oriented their economy around shipbuilding.
Of course "Andoran is a naval power" is the reason Cheliax would invest heavily in rebuilding their navy.
Andoran has its own problems, including supply bottlenecks from the Verduran Treaty and from Lumber Consortium corruption. It also has to either maintain a standing armada in its colonies or have to write them off, while Cheliax can concentrate.
I don't expect the naval theater to be decisive for either power, however. International trade simply isn't important enough a part of their economies to force a surrender by blockade, and if the foe's fleet isn't destroyed, amphibious operations are a non-starter. There's a reason the opening front of the war involves both armies trying to wheel through Isger.
In #7-14: Brastlewark at War, Part 2: The Gnome Liberation, the introductory paragraph states that the eastern front has advanced enough to be close to the gnome city and be able to liberate it, etc., so the ground advance is progressing well. If Hell's Destiny is on the western front, I suppose we'll sandwich Cheliax until we reach Egorian, where there will be a final confrontation, I assume.
Honestly, I hope that when Cheliax loses, it will manage to accomplish something that makes you say, "Holy crap, i cant believe that happened!" For example, I think this could be done well and an example is with Tyrant Grasp, where you prevent Tar-Baphon's ultimate objective (Absalom) but can't prevent the "secondary" one (Lastwall). I'd like it if, while Cheliax's main objective that we're trying to prevent is stop them from winning the war (obviously) or cause trouble with Asmodeus, they should achieve something secondary, like as an ex. creating a "Radiant Fire" 2.0 with the pieces of Gorum and destroying Augustana in a massive explosion. It doesn't have to be exactly that, but if Andoran and all their allies basically win easily, it shows they could easily wipe out Molthune or Nidal or whoever, and they're not going to do it "just 'cause".
Unless Andoran becomes ultra-militant and interventionist and turns into the "villain" of the region (a bit of a pipe dream, I think), I want there to be more than just the illusion of stakes; I want them to actually lose something, to make it a victory that's more sweet than bitter, but there has to be some bitterness in it.
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Btw the page for Hell's Destiny is up for any interested.
It would appear that Cheliax gets hit from within and from without, makes sense. I imagine that even if the countries get pull into the conflict because of the Hellfire Crisis i don't think it every conflict in it would end with Cheliax defeat, if lets say Mzali and Vidrian go to war because Vidrian resources are low helping in the conflict and Mzali saw blood in the water that could continue for years. That way be could come back to resolved some other time when the call to write war stories arise again, similarly with what is going on in Molthune/Nirmathas.
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Sounds like the PCs will go to Hell and negotiate Thrune's final defeat with Asmodeus.
[sarcasm]Lovely.[/sarcasm]*
If true, that means the only really BIG baddy left in the Inner Sea region would be Tar-Baphon.
:eyeroll:
No, Belimarius doesn't count.
*There really does need to be a sarcasm font.
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Creative Director
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Sounds like the PCs will go to Hell and negotiate Thrune's final defeat with Asmodeus.[sarcasm]Lovely.[/sarcasm]*
If true, that means the only really BIG baddy left in the Inner Sea region would be Tar-Baphon.
:eyeroll:
No, Belimarius doesn't count.
*There really does need to be a sarcasm font.
Maybe wait and see what the adventure does first?
Even then, as I've said elsewhere, there remains plenty of other big baddies left to tell stories about in the Inner Sea region. We try to introduce new ones to build up whenever we take older ones out in adventures, too. Like in Spore War...
Five other big baddies that come to mind off the top of my head in the Inner Sea region include but are not limited to (and there are more, these are just the five that immediately come to mind)...
We will continue to use the villains we've set up now and then as villains to oppose in adventures, and will continue to introduce new ones as previous stories conclude. We've got Adventure Paths planned out through the start of 2029, and there's no shortage of villains yet, rest assured.
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Creative Director
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And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
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Yeah, I don't ever worry about "checking big bads off the list" since you can always create another potential world-ending terror that the PCs would be hard pressed to put a stop to literally any time you want. I think there's more of a risk of "your looming threats never actually pay off" making the world feel less dynamic than it could.
And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
Surely
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Creative Director
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And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
Surely ** spoiler omitted ** too is itching for a rematch!
While I do wish I'd been able to develop that Adventure Path rather than just do the outline... he HAS already starred in one, so if (WHEN) we do another Lovecraftian Adventure Path I'd like to focus on a different baddie, personally.
While I do wish I'd been able to develop that Adventure Path rather than just do the outline... he HAS already starred in one, so if (WHEN) we do another Lovecraftian Adventure Path I'd like to focus on a different baddie, personally.And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
Surely ** spoiler omitted ** too is itching for a rematch!
I could see him as a reoccurring villain. But I’m excited to learn that the next Lovecraftian AP is just a matter of time!
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Creative Director
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I could see him as a reoccurring villain. But I’m excited to learn that the next Lovecraftian AP is just a matter of time!
Nothing overtly Lovecraftian in the works yet, don't get me wrong. I'd love to do one, of course, but of the four I'm currently working on in the future, "Bastion of Blasphemies" probably has the most Lovecraft monsters in it (even though it's main theme is not overtly Lovecraftian... less cosmic horror and more folk horror/gothic horror).
So... yeah, just a matter of time, I guess, but that matter of time is measured in multiple years rather than months at this point!
(It's always difficult for me to idly muse about adventures and Adventure Paths without it coming across as a promise...)
I haven't kept up on things since I prefer 1e to 2e but this sounds interesting.
I wonder what role The Stolen Lands will play in this.
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A number of new books just popped up in the store, including Lost Omens: Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance for October.
As the Hellfire Crisis comes to an end, the powers that be must reckon with a changed world. Within the Infernal Inheritance dwell scheming nobles, remnants of ancient empires, and Hellish dangers.
In this comprehensive regional gazetteer, readers will be able to explore:
Cheliax, a devil-bound nation transformed by war;
Corentyn, a naval power establishing its militaristic and economical might;
Isger, a recently liberated nation discovering its forgotten past;
Nidal, a nation wreathed in shadow and bound to a wicked god;
Ravounel, a former Chelaxian hold that is seeking its own place in the world;
Scorchhome, a nation for goblins and other outcasts.
Each entry within this gazetteer includes the history, culture, and current events of the region, as well as a major city to include in a variety adventures. The book also includes new character options and a fold-out poster map!
Seems Corentyn is due to carve off a chunk of western Cheliax and become its own nation by the end of Hell's Destiny.
A number of new books just popped up in the store, including Lost Omens: Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance for October.
Seems Corentyn is due to carve off a chunk of western Cheliax and become its own nation by the end of Hell's Destiny.As the Hellfire Crisis comes to an end, the powers that be must reckon with a changed world. Within the Infernal Inheritance dwell scheming nobles, remnants of ancient empires, and Hellish dangers.
In this comprehensive regional gazetteer, readers will be able to explore:
Cheliax, a devil-bound nation transformed by war;
Corentyn, a naval power establishing its militaristic and economical might;
Isger, a recently liberated nation discovering its forgotten past;
Nidal, a nation wreathed in shadow and bound to a wicked god;
Ravounel, a former Chelaxian hold that is seeking its own place in the world;
Scorchhome, a nation for goblins and other outcasts.
Each entry within this gazetteer includes the history, culture, and current events of the region, as well as a major city to include in a variety adventures. The book also includes new character options and a fold-out poster map!
Scorchhome, I wonder where that is my guess is Isger because of all the goblins there. and Isger is liberated. I would imagine that these two nations might have a complicated relationship.
I wonder how Andoran and Cheliax are going to be handling the aftermath of the war.
Also Nidal, what are they doing in the war.
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There's been several PFS modules where the Pathfinder Society is working with goblins in the Chitterwood forest in Isger recently, and that forest has a bunch of burned trees, so that makes the most sense for where Scorchhome is to me.
EDIT:
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Scorchhome, I wonder where that is my guess is Isger because of all the goblins there. and Isger is liberated. I would imagine that these two nations might have a complicated relationship.
Scorchhome is mentioned in passing in the wrap-up/future plots part of Hellbreakers - the goblin tribes of the Chitterwood in southern Isger declare the region as an independent nation.
Don't have any info on its formal borders, yet.
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A number of new books just popped up in the store, including Lost Omens: Cheliax, Infernal Inheritance for October.
Seems Corentyn is due to carve off a chunk of western Cheliax and become its own nation by the end of Hell's Destiny.As the Hellfire Crisis comes to an end, the powers that be must reckon with a changed world. Within the Infernal Inheritance dwell scheming nobles, remnants of ancient empires, and Hellish dangers.
In this comprehensive regional gazetteer, readers will be able to explore:
Cheliax, a devil-bound nation transformed by war;
Corentyn, a naval power establishing its militaristic and economical might;
Isger, a recently liberated nation discovering its forgotten past;
Nidal, a nation wreathed in shadow and bound to a wicked god;
Ravounel, a former Chelaxian hold that is seeking its own place in the world;
Scorchhome, a nation for goblins and other outcasts.
Each entry within this gazetteer includes the history, culture, and current events of the region, as well as a major city to include in a variety adventures. The book also includes new character options and a fold-out poster map!
Looks like it has been removed from the Paizo Store.
I'm thinking it gives away the ending of the Hellbreakers AP at least somewhat.
If by the end of the AP Cheliax was going to fall, putting out a brand new sourcebook with that name would make no sense.
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Scorchhome, I wonder where that is my guess is Isger because of all the goblins there. and Isger is liberated. I would imagine that these two nations might have a complicated relationship.
Alas for the plurinationalism that could have been, but it could only have been achieved in a more expansive revolutionary wave -- and not when one of the imperialist powers whose conflict subsumed the liberation struggle instigated its partisans to pogrom the oppressed nationalities, and the other's interest lies in ensuring its "sister republics" are as weak, divided, pliant, and dependent upon it as possible.
I wonder if we will get to see of play Abrogail II, the sequel of the satirical play that sparked the revolutionary sentiment in Pezzack, as i think there is no better time for it than now and it was foreshadowed that "it would spark a revolution over all of Cheliax". I mentioned 'cause my friend toll me the fist play gets mentioned in some way in Hellbreakers so i think it would be funny to do a satirical play and them beat the woman it was named after.
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The fact that Cheliax is going to stand as a *nation* after the end of the war, though maybe losing a chunk of its territory makes me think of a possibility.
What if Cheliax becomes a true fascist state in the modern sense?
Imagine this scenario: Andora has won, Abrogail is defeated, Cheliax needs a new government. Just annexing it to Andoran isn't feasible so Andoran forces elections to make Cheliax the third true democracy in the Inner Sea, the final triumph of their ideals over those of their hated rivals.
And the elections are won by a candidate that perfectly exemplifies Chelixian "virtues". The devils don't even have to interfere too much (though they still do, of course). After decades of devil-worshipping governement the vast majority of the population genuinely wants a strong man (or woman) that promises to restore order at any cost. And of course revanchist sentiment towards Andoran might play a part in that, since i doubt most citizens would be very sympathetic to "liberators" that still invaded their country.
This would fit in perfectly with the running theme of modernization that's been present in recent Lost Omens books, still provide a way to for Abrogail to be present if they want to keep her as a villain (maybe as a power behind the scene, officially a prisoner but unofficially influencing the newly elected governement), keep Cheliax in place as the nation where devils influence the government (now with even MORE bureocracy) and put Andoran in a very interesting moral quandary.
It's one thing for a democracy to oppose an evil empire. That's ethically easy. But how do you oppose an evil democracy where the "will of the people" genuinely leads to authoritarian outcomes?
Interesting.
See this Grand Admiral Thrawn video on YouTube. It definitely has similar vibes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9jiQBFp7Ik
And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
If you do something with
If you do something with ** spoiler omitted **, I will spend as much money as exists to buy whatever she appears in.And adding to the list of big baddies I have personally introduced into the setting and haven't done much with yet and would love to explore more at some point in the future, let's add...
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not worried about running out of villains, at least for the Adventure Paths and standalone adventures I'm eager to build over the next several years.
I second this
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Cheliax should crush Andoran in a war they have about even sized populations and Cheliax can call whole armies of devils to supplement their army.
I think at least some people in Cheliax are well aware that if they marched into battle alongside the literal forces of Hell, that will draw a *lot* of people into the war on the side of "the people who aren't with the literal devils."
There are other people in Cheliax who are aware that Asmodeus will not commit his forces to the aid of Cheliax because of various divine détentes that prevent direct intervention(i.e. why Pharasma hasn't sent Psychopomps to turn Geb into a crater), but will dangle "infernal aid" in order to set the hooks in deeper. Going down that route involves paying a lot for a little, as is standard for "a deal with the devil."
Disappointed that the war that was supposed to exemplify how Gorum's death changed everything will be so small in geographical scope though.
I thought the vibe was that wars are breaking out (or threatening to) all over Golarion with Cheliax, as contentious as its region is, exemplifies that vibe so is the focus of the AP. Maybe modules or PFS scenarios will flesh out a broader swath. And what's Tar-Baphon doing to analyze and benefit from the war-vibe? Does he notice, being in the midst of ongoing conflict already? And is it only Golarion?
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I mean the entire point of the thread is that it’s not just Andoran but a whole anti-Chelish coalition. We still don’t know exactly who’s in it yet aside from Isgeri nationalists
I'm very curious how Ravounel ends up on the side of the "Good guys" (which they were always going to, they're one of the "do-gooder" nations despite the presence of Vyre) given their treaty obligations.