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Could have the alarm spell in place instead.
A door with bells attached to it seems like a pretty good way to be alerted that someone is there, even if you have a hard time seeing them.Eh. A mechanism that is set in place to activate and cause an adverse effect when someone unknowingly interacts with a concealed trigger - this 100% counts as a trap
And a very rudimentary one, that could be devised by a kid. This deserves a low level DC and shouldn't slow down any proficient adventurer.
I understand everyone's gamist reasons. But a bell attached to a door has no practical way to disable it without opening the door and ringing the bell.
I would allow a perception check to realize it, assuming the player is opening the door slowly and carefully and give them a chance to not go through a particular door.
In my mind, there are sometimes things that can't be disabled (don't use it all the time).
And to someone's earlier point, a magical alarm can't be disabled by your average rogue.
For most bells if you want to stop the sound they make you gently press the dangle piece against the side, then hold it there while you open the door. If it is one that is fully encased you can either try to carefully open it up and dismantle it or slowly fill it with a foam to disable the ability to make noise that way.
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You could also simply cast 4th Rank Silence on yourself and then open the door, in which case the bell will be within your 10 foot silence aura and not emit a sound.
Is it a good use of a 4th rank spell? Probably not. But it'd work.
You could also simply cast 4th Rank Silence on yourself and then open the door, in which case the bell will be within your 10 foot silence aura and not emit a sound.
Is it a good use of a 4th rank spell? Probably not. But it'd work.
Something like that would absolutely be fine. But it would require the rogue to have casting (not super common) and have the silence spell available to them. And notice the bell. And decide that it was worth the spell slot to get on the other side of that door, rather than coming back with the rest of the party and not caring if they proceeded through the area with stealth.
Because let's remember, opening the door was always possible. It's opening the door without being noticed is the problem.
You could also simply cast 4th Rank Silence on yourself and then open the door, in which case the bell will be within your 10 foot silence aura and not emit a sound.
Is it a good use of a 4th rank spell? Probably not. But it'd work.
Something like that would absolutely be fine. But it would require the rogue to have casting (not super common) and have the silence spell available to them. And notice the bell. And decide that it was worth the spell slot to get on the other side of that door, rather than coming back with the rest of the party and not caring if they proceeded through the area with stealth.
Because let's remember, opening the door was always possible. It's opening the door without being noticed is the problem.
I think I just realized you have the bell on the enemy side of the door not the pc side!
Clever.
I think I just realized you have the bell on the enemy side of the door not the pc side!
Clever.
Yeah....it wouldn't be "undefeatable"* if it were on the same side as the PCs.
*People disagree about whether or not it should be undefeatable, as at least some people believe this should qualify as a trap and should therefore have a DC.
There are rules that say the GM can decide the level of proficiency required for certain traps. This might be the kind of thing that requires legendary proficiency to even attempt. Because it's relatively easy for me to imagine a setup that has no plausible way to prevent the door from ringing the bell when opened even a little, and is on the opposite side of the door.
But legendary skills allow you do things we think are essentially impossible, so yeah...in any event, do overdo things like this. Again, I think it's okay to deny players their abilities sometimes, but don't do it with any consistency.
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I think I just realized you have the bell on the enemy side of the door not the pc side!
Clever.Yeah....it wouldn't be "undefeatable"* if it were on the same side as the PCs.
*People disagree about whether or not it should be undefeatable, as at least some people believe this should qualify as a trap and should therefore have a DC.
Another foolproof option would be to have a lookout watching the door. no matter the stealth roll of the pc the door doesnt have stealth, if it opens it will be noticed.
Another foolproof option would be to have a lookout watching the door. no matter the stealth roll of the pc the door doesnt have stealth, if it opens it will be noticed.I think I just realized you have the bell on the enemy side of the door not the pc side!
Clever.Yeah....it wouldn't be "undefeatable"* if it were on the same side as the PCs.
*People disagree about whether or not it should be undefeatable, as at least some people believe this should qualify as a trap and should therefore have a DC.
Agreed, although that's the kind of thing people will start arguing about to say that the guard is likely to get bored and distracted. And if you put multiple guards they're likely to distract each other.
Agreed, although that's the kind of thing people will start arguing about to say that the guard is likely to get bored and distracted. And if you put multiple guards they're likely to distract each other.Another foolproof option would be to have a lookout watching the door. no matter the stealth roll of the pc the door doesnt have stealth, if it opens it will be noticed.I think I just realized you have the bell on the enemy side of the door not the pc side!
Clever.Yeah....it wouldn't be "undefeatable"* if it were on the same side as the PCs.
*People disagree about whether or not it should be undefeatable, as at least some people believe this should qualify as a trap and should therefore have a DC.
Yeah players kind of dont have any say in what the guard is capable of though.
I mean they don't but they can point out having a dude staring at a door 24/7 is stupid (which it is).
But it's a fantasy game, you could have a zombie, or a construct, or a bunch of stuff that doesn't get tired and can alert people.
Not that it matters because the OP wasn't about traps (or non traps) or anything of the sort, it was about senses, which wouldn't really apply here, because someone with Foil Senses and Legendary Sneak (like OP) could literally kick open the door, Hide, Sneak, and the guards would have absolutely no clue where they are.
That's how you defeat the bell.
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I mean they don't but they can point out having a dude staring at a door 24/7 is stupid (which it is).
But it's a fantasy game, you could have a zombie, or a construct, or a bunch of stuff that doesn't get tired and can alert people.
Not that it matters because the OP wasn't about traps (or non traps) or anything of the sort, it was about senses, which wouldn't really apply here, because someone with Foil Senses and Legendary Sneak (like OP) could literally kick open the door, Hide, Sneak, and the guards would have absolutely no clue where they are.
That's how you defeat the bell.
That's not really "defeating" the bell. It's not caring about the bell.
But honestly, as a GM this is the answer I want.
Because now the guards know someone is there, but they don't know where you are. That's an interesting encounter, though potentially deadly if there is a poor stealth roll (unless your party is behind you). Which as the GM is also what I want, because I don't really like to split the party because there is only one GM and only so much game time each week.
I don't like to run something for a single player unless it's like 15 minutes or less, as I consider it rude to other players.
That is why I put in things like an unavoidable bell, to dissuade a player from trying to run through the whole dungeon with stealth and steal the mcguffin. It's fun for the that one player, and everyone else is playing on their phone while they wait to find out if their friend ever returns.
Edit: Also if something is important enough, it definitely warrants guards standing to protect it 24/7. Look at Buckingham Palace guards.
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I mean they don't but they can point out having a dude staring at a door 24/7 is stupid (which it is).
But it's a fantasy game, you could have a zombie, or a construct, or a bunch of stuff that doesn't get tired and can alert people.
Not that it matters because the OP wasn't about traps (or non traps) or anything of the sort, it was about senses, which wouldn't really apply here, because someone with Foil Senses and Legendary Sneak (like OP) could literally kick open the door, Hide, Sneak, and the guards would have absolutely no clue where they are.
Unless the guards have Blind Fight, in which case they would be aware if they were adjacent to the rogue.
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Another thought along this line. Dungeons and other places you want to protect usually have doors. A door with bells attached to it seems like a pretty good way to be alerted that someone is there, even if you have a hard time seeing them. And personally I don't think that counts as a trap or something that could be disabled.
This is what I came here to say. GM is overthinking things. If he wants to make sneaking harder he doesn't need a bunch of specialized creatures, he just needs doors.
You wouldn't even need the bell trap. Just the door is enough to allow enemies see the door open as the rogue passes through.
Sure the rogue can disable the door "trap" but he still isn't moving through it without getting it out of the way. A door coming off its hinges is likely to be even more suspect.
Unless the guards have Blind Fight, in which case they would be aware if they were adjacent to the rogue.I mean they don't but they can point out having a dude staring at a door 24/7 is stupid (which it is).
But it's a fantasy game, you could have a zombie, or a construct, or a bunch of stuff that doesn't get tired and can alert people.
Not that it matters because the OP wasn't about traps (or non traps) or anything of the sort, it was about senses, which wouldn't really apply here, because someone with Foil Senses and Legendary Sneak (like OP) could literally kick open the door, Hide, Sneak, and the guards would have absolutely no clue where they are.
Agreed, but again I would use enemies with blind fight sparingly, as it is again kind of a screw you to stealth focused players.
I don't usually go on solo stealth missions anyway.
As a GM, I appreciate that. If I have a player that's using stealth to get into position in combat unnoticed and get sneak attack from the start of a fight, as a GM that's exactly how I want to see it be used. That's easy to deal with. It's the solo stealth people that want to do the whole adventure by themselves that create problems.
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Agreed, but again I would use enemies with blind fight sparingly, as it is again kind of a screw you to stealth focused players.
Unless the guards have Blind Fight, in which case they would be aware if they were adjacent to the rogue.
Totally agree. This is what you would have if you were trying to infiltrate the base of someone paranoid, or who had knowledge of the characters and their abilities.
I don't usually go on solo stealth missions anyway.As a GM, I appreciate that. If I have a player that's using stealth to get into position in combat unnoticed and get sneak attack from the start of a fight, as a GM that's exactly how I want to see it be used. That's easy to deal with. It's the solo stealth people that want to do the whole adventure by themselves that create problems.
I've been running Prey for Death with an entire stealth capable group -- all you need to do is add Quiet Allies into the mix and you have an entire party capable of Stealth shenanigans. (Which is great -- the adventure is designed with that in mind.)
If this is something you will be dealing with a lot, at some point you should look at the Infiltration rules -- you can offloaed a lot of this into Exploration mode and victory point subsystems. The Infiltration in Part 1 of PfD is great reading if you want to set something like that up.
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I don't believe for a moment that a bell is an impossible to deal with trap, whatever side of the door it happens to be on.
People disarm bells, sensors, and locks from the wrong side of the door all the time in real life. You're not going to convince me that a high-fantasy rogue is going to be wholly unable to deal with such things despite having any number of exotic or magical fantasy tools available to them.
Just off the top of my head, a rogue might be able to use a small magnet from his thieve's toolkit to pin the bell's clapper against the sound bow, thereby preventing it from sounding. If it's some nonmagnetic material, then a thin hook passed between the door frame and the door might be enough to unhook the bell above the door and carefully lower it to the floor or other nearby surface in which it is unlikely to make noise (or pin a wad of cotten or sap into the bell's sounding chamber with such a hook).
I for one would rule it as disarming a trap, and in most cases, it would not be particularly difficult. Such protections aren't meant to stop people, but to alert others and/or slow down intruders, allowing more time for them to get caught.
I don't believe for a moment that a bell is an impossible to deal with trap, whatever side of the door it happens to be on.
You do you. I can't tell you you're wrong, but you're not going to convince that as a GM I can't have an alarming effect that can't be disabled.*
*Again, use sparingly and also give the player a chance to recognize the effect and that it can't be disarmed.
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If a GM tells me something can't be done, and if I and other players can calmly explain two or three rational and practical ways that it could be easily done without having to think too long on it, and they still insist on saying it's impossible without any logical support*, I doubt they will be my GM for much longer.
The bigger concern with a bell placed on the enemy side of the door isn't actually the stopping it from ringing. its doing it without anyone noticing a door opening.
If a GM tells me something can't be done, and if I and other players can calmly explain two or three rational and practical ways that it could be easily done without having to think too long on it, and they still insist on saying it's impossible without any logical support*, I doubt they will be my GM for much longer.
** spoiler omitted **
I think we probably wouldn't get along in a gaming group.
I have reasons for why I would place that bell that can't be disabled, but none of them are reasons that arise from within the game world. And chances are it would spoil plot to explain, so I probably wouldn't explain.
If that means that you wouldn't want me as a GM, I think it also means I wouldn't want you as a player.
And that's okay. Not every gaming style has to be for everyone.
I think we probably wouldn't get along in a gaming group.
I have reasons for why I would place that bell that can't be disabled, but none of them are reasons that arise from within the game world. And chances are it would spoil plot to explain, so I probably wouldn't explain.
If that means that you wouldn't want me as a GM, I think it also means I wouldn't want you as a player.
And that's okay. Not every gaming style has to be for everyone.
Perhaps.
I'm just not a fan of locked doors. If they didn't bother me, I'd still be playing video games where they're all over the place.
A big draw of roleplaying games is to be able to do things and go places you normally couldn't in the video games.
The playstyle you describe strikes me as very rigid, which likely wouldn't be my cup of tea.
And that's okay, as you say.
I think we probably wouldn't get along in a gaming group.
I have reasons for why I would place that bell that can't be disabled, but none of them are reasons that arise from within the game world. And chances are it would spoil plot to explain, so I probably wouldn't explain.
If that means that you wouldn't want me as a GM, I think it also means I wouldn't want you as a player.
And that's okay. Not every gaming style has to be for everyone.
Perhaps.
I'm just not a fan of locked doors. If they didn't bother me, I'd still be playing video games where they're all over the place.
A big draw of roleplaying games is to be able to do things and go places you normally couldn't in the video games.
The playstyle you describe strikes me as very rigid, which likely wouldn't be my cup of tea.
And that's okay, as you say.
To be fair, the door isn't locked. It's alarmed, with an alarm you can't defeat. You can get in. But anyone inside will know you're inside.
90% of the time an alarm trap would be able to be defeated. 99% even. But as a GM, I do occasionally put in things that simply can't be beaten by the normal methods.
The door with a bell alarm that can be disarmed.
A locked door* (let's assume it's more like a magic door with a magic portal) but still basically the same thing in terms of barring progress.
Someone that cannot be reasoned or negotiated with via diplomacy.
These kind of out of combat activities can be problematic to certain stories, or the way I'd like certain things to play out.
And to be clear, I wouldn't do it for in combat stuff.
I'm not a fan of locked doors or traps because there isn't always someone in the party that can take care of them. If there is then it's a great time for them to shine but I don't want to penalize a party because no one wanted to invest in thievery.
I personally wouldn't let a special sense detect someone with the foil senses feat. Instead if I thought it was necessary I'd boost a bosses perception. But as I want my players to win so they have more fun (especially using the trick they built their character on) I'd probably not do that often.
This is a fun situation. This is how I would approach the problem.
I'll go invisible (I prepare 1 daily invisibility sphere, and I do have quiet allies, so we can have fun together) and use mage hand to repeatedly open the door. At some point they'll think it's somehow malfunctioning or stop caring. Then I'll go.
If we get caught, then I guess the...
That's certainly one way to approach if.
But I'll tell you, again as I have mentioned you would use this method sparingly, which means it's not just some random door. Something very important would behind the door.
You set it off, repeatedly. When you do, the bad guys start investigating. But when they don't see anything and it keeps happening, they don't get complement and do a "it must have been the wind" Skyrim moment. They're aware of magic and powerful enemies with potentially unknown powers. They start evacuating people and important items.
Now you have a limited number of turns to find the person/object and secure them before the escape and the bad guys plot advances because you didn't stop them.
Now you have a limited number of turns to find the person/object and secure them before the escape and the bad guys plot advances because you didn't stop them.
LOL. Oops. XD
I'm a fan of a living game world that reacts with a modicum of sense to player actions. If a smart enemy has their base compromised, they get important things out and away. They don't just wait to see what happens.
By putting a time limit on how long the players have to accomplish a goal, I think it makes for a more interesting dynamic than "kill everything and loot the place at your leisure".
They start evacuating people and inportant itemsWhich means the item is no longer behind an unavoidable trap door. I view that as a progress.
Well, nothing says the item/person has to pass through the door that you did, to leave the building.
But I think your point is more you got "through" the obstruction.
But that was always an option, and always the intention.
It's just that you aren't meant to be able to do it without being noticed.