Effects that happen when a creature "first enters" the area usually don't have a stipulation for how else the effect happens. Effects that happen when a creature "enters" the area usually also say "or starts/ends its turn in the area" or some other way the effect can happen.
Is "first enters" meant to be interpreted more liberally than "enters?" For instance, would Frightful Presence or an Ice Mummy's Great Despair activate when the monster approaches the creature, while Stench or a Cinder Rat's Fedit Fumes would not?
But if the creature would move out of the area and then enter it again later on it would not be affected/make another roll/be penalized.
To add to or maybe just clarify that, it is also possible for a 'first enter' effect to reinstate the same effect if the creature enters the area again.
That is the behavior of Circle of Protection - where additional attempts to enter the area use the first save result again.
Though Circle of Protection doesn't use the phrase 'first enter', I'm not finding much when I search for that term specifically. Maybe I am just searching wrong.
But if the creature would move out of the area and then enter it again later on it would not be affected/make another roll/be penalized.To add to or maybe just clarify that, it is also possible for a 'first enter' effect to reinstate the same effect if the creature enters the area again.
That is the behavior of Circle of Protection - where additional attempts to enter the area use the first save result again.
Though Circle of Protection doesn't use the phrase 'first enter', I'm not finding much when I search for that term specifically. Maybe I am just searching wrong.
Try "first enters" with an s.
Try "first enters" with an s.
Fascinating that without the 's' it doesn't find anything. Considering that everything that contains the text "first enters" would also contain the substring "first enter".
Anyway...
From the look of the ones that I pulled up, most of them are something similar to Frightful Presence that causes a frightened condition. Sometimes some other one-time debuff like a fail -> crit fail downgrade debuff. Those shouldn't happen again on later re-entry into the area.
This rule pattern is also why I find it very questionable when people rule that the caster of Bane can cause enemies that are already in the spell's area to have to re-roll a successful save by using the action to expand the area.
I don't think Bane is relevant. Bane only cares that the creature is in the area, not that they enter or first enter it.
Anyway, so you're saying that the word "first" doesn't actually change what it means to enter, meaning what counts as entering Frightful Presence would also count as entering Stench, right?
I don't think Bane is relevant. Bane only cares that the creature is in the area, not that they enter or first enter it.
The save against the effect of Bane happens when the target first enters the area whether through the enemy's actions or the caster's. Later re-entry of the area would use the same first save result no matter if it is through the enemy's action, the caster's movement, or the caster expanding the radius of the emanation.
That is my ruling on it anyway.
I don't think Bane is relevant. Bane only cares that the creature is in the area, not that they enter or first enter it.The save against the effect of Bane happens when the target first enters the area whether through the enemy's actions or the caster's. Later re-entry of the area would use the same first save result no matter if it is through the enemy's action, the caster's movement, or the caster expanding the radius of the emanation.
That is my ruling on it anyway.
Bane doesn't actually refer to entering the area. Just to enemies that are in the area.
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Anyway, so you're saying that the word "first" doesn't actually change what it means to enter, meaning what counts as entering Frightful Presence would also count as entering Stench, right?
I'm thinking that I am not. If I am understanding what you are proposing correctly.
Frightful Presence has an effect when a target first encounters the effect. It happens once and applies its Frightened condition. The save only happens once though and the condition doesn't get reapplied when you enter the area later.
Stench has an ongoing effect that happens every time a target enters the area or starts in the area. So it constantly reapplies Sickened 1 each turn, though the effect doesn't stack. And the target becomes temporarily immune after they recover.
So while in this case Frightful Presence and Stench are similar in that once you recover from the condition that it applies it doesn't get reapplied, there is a difference between 'enters' and 'first enters'.
First enters: happens once and either doesn't happen again or uses the same result as the first time.
Enters: can trigger its effect each time the target enters. And often also triggers repeatedly if they stay in the area.
Or are you trying to make a distinction between 'entering' an existing effect and having the effect cast around you and so therefore you didn't 'enter' the effect at all and are therefore not affected?
Because no, if the effect didn't exist previously and now it does and you are inside the area, that still counts as 'entering'.
Well it doesn't specifically say entering of its own volition or by striding into the area or anything so entering would be entering even if it wasn't the creatures choice.
So Finoan is saying that being exposed to the area is enough to count as "entering" for both types of effects. That interpretation seemed to me that it clashes with Stench, but...
(aura, olfactory) A creature entering the aura or starting its turn in the area must succeed at a Fortitude save or become sickened 1 (plus slowed 1 as long as it's sickened on a critical failure). A creature that succeeds at its save or recovers from being sickened is temporarily immune to all stench auras for 1 minute.
I had thought that the interpretation didn't make sense here because of the temporary immunity. Upon exposure, the target would become immune, making the start turn clause irrelevant.
But now that I look at it again, the immunity only happens if the target succeeds the save or recovered from sickened. A creature could initially fail the save upon the Stench being brought to them, then fail to remove sickened, then crit fail the next save to become slowed 1, so it's relevant after all. Hmm...
Ah, NorrKnektan replied before I did. They made a similar note about Stench but still concluded that the area coming to the target maybe shouldn't count. Hmm...
I would clarify that entering does imply movement of the creature entering(can be forced). But if something with stench is the one moving and placing another creature in its stench aura by moving to it then only the starts turn in the aura applies not the entering.
There's also balance to consider if bringing the area to the target counts as entering.
If a monster can inflict frightened 2 on the whole party just by approaching, that's basically the whole party effectively starting the fight one level lower than normal.
It's even more powerful with effects like Great Despair (Ice Mummy's aura), that can inflict paralyzed on the whole party for 1d4 rounds. Sounds like a win button to me.
Perhaps these effects are meant to deter the PCs from approaching, not reward the monsters for approaching.
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I would clarify that entering does imply movement of the creature entering(can be forced). But if something with stench is the one moving and placing another creature in its stench aura by moving to it then only the starts turn in the aura applies not the entering.
I don't make that distinction. It seems too fine of a hair to split. It would require much more complicated rules text in order to have the same basic effect without this potential loophole.
If you weren't in the effect previously and you are now, then you have 'entered' the effect. It doesn't matter if it was because you moved into the existing area, if the area moved to cover you, if the area expanded to cover you, or if the effect was newly created. All are equivalent.
As an exercise because I am curious, can you write my description of 'entered' using wording that doesn't have your implication of only including when the target moves and not when the effect moves? What would that look like?
If a country annexes another country, would you say the residents of the latter entered the former? Or would you say that they were entered into the former?
Oh, I see what you're asking now. That effect actually exists in D&D 2024. They added it as a buff to Spirit Guardians.
Protective spirits flit around you in a 15-foot Emanation for the duration. If you are good or neutral, their spectral form appears angelic or fey (your choice). If you are evil, they appear fiendish.
When you cast this spell, you can designate creatures to be unaffected by it. Any other creature’s Speed is halved in the Emanation, and whenever the Emanation enters a creature’s space and whenever a creature enters the Emanation or ends its turn there, the creature must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d8 Radiant damage (if you are good or neutral) or 3d8 Necrotic damage (if you are evil). On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage. A creature makes this save only once per turn.
Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 3.
I would clarify that entering does imply movement of the creature entering(can be forced). But if something with stench is the one moving and placing another creature in its stench aura by moving to it then only the starts turn in the aura applies not the entering.I don't make that distinction. It seems too fine of a hair to split. It would require much more complicated rules text in order to have the same basic effect without this potential loophole.
If you weren't in the effect previously and you are now, then you have 'entered' the effect. It doesn't matter if it was because you moved into the existing area, if the area moved to cover you, if the area expanded to cover you, or if the effect was newly created. All are equivalent.
As an exercise because I am curious, can you write my description of 'entered' using wording that doesn't have your implication of only including when the target moves and not when the effect moves? What would that look like?
If considering "enter" as synonymous with something like "becomes in range of the aura's area of effect". That is a lot longer but it would be neutral as to how the creature became in range of the aura's area of effect.
"Enter" to me at least carried the implication that the creature moved into it. Like the creature is doing something since its a verb. And looking at enter as a verb holds with forced movement as you could describe someone entering a space when they were pushed, it just wouldn't describe the momentum that got them there.Actually there is an example of one way an aura would take affect immediately no matter who does the movement with the Ice mummy despair aura.
the frightened 1 effect says,
"Living creatures are frightened 1 while in an ice mummy's great despair aura."
This is movement neutral, no matter how the creature ends up in that aura it affects them as soon as they are in it.
You know the mummy effect actually changed my opinion. If entering was not considered any time a creature ends up in the aura no matter how it happened then the paralyze effect of the mummy would never have a chance to roll a check if the mummy moved in. So enters must have been meant to mean something like "becomes in range of the aura's area of effect".
Actually, it's that same effect that gave me doubts in the first place. Paralyzed for 1d4 rounds is bad enough when it happens to one person on a failed save. Imagine the monster just walking up to your party and affecting all of them at once for the price of 1 action. On the other hand, Ice Mummy doesn't have many ranged options that would force an approach.
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Even things that are less dangerous should follow the same rules. So an Ichor Slinger that walks towards the party muttering about reagents should have the Mystery Ingredients effect on the party. Or one that is summoned via summoning spell (assuming that the Uncommon trait is being exempted) and has the aura spring up around the party without them moving.
Narratively, they are still hearing the muttering. The auditory effect should happen. The party shouldn't be able to stand around completely immune and ignoring the effect because of a minor implication in the word choice for a rule.
Having monsters with keep away type abilities has been a staple for a long time, they tend to be slow and durable being an impending doom sort of feel. Or be dragons and just ruin your day.
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looking at the mummy stats its slow with only 20 ft movement.
moderate hp at 130 for its level
moderate AC at 26
Saves include 1 high 1 moderate and 1 low
close to maximum fire weakness and cold resistance at 10 each
its kinda middling defensively. its slow, but in a blizzard it will see you before you see it.
Offensively
Low strike to hit at +15. and below low damage on strikes.
The effect DCs at 24 are 1 point above moderate for their level.
The frost breath though is high at 26 DC and damage is exactly in line with aoe damage guidelines for limited use abilities.
Really its the abilities they have that gives them a fighting chance.
The PCs have to be hindered between the aura and frost rot to make this monster challenging. If the party can stay at range and just contend with the frost breath it looks like they might have an easy time fighting it, especially if they can do fire damage.
And in fairness, one of the definitions for "enter" returned by a Google search is "come or be introduced into."
But I still worry that this more liberal definition of "enter" leads to a lot of unintended interactions. If an aura (one that affects creatures who enter) doesn't give temp immunity, the monster would effectively be able to force multiple saves in one round by just walking back and forth with a single Stride. Damage would not be repeated, but conditions and other effects would still work.
The Cinder Rat's Fetid Fumes come to mind. There's no temp immunity, and it has a Speed of 40 feet.
Again, the Cinder Rat is just the first one that came to mind. There are plenty of smarter monsters with nondamaging auras that lack temporary immunity and cause their effects upon entry.
But you are saying the Cinder Rat wouldn't be able to do this anyway because that wouldn't count as the target entering. And I find it best to run it that way, too.
So are you suggesting that "first enters" works that way, too, the only difference being that only the first entry within a given time period counts?
So running the "first enters" effects with the broader definition is the way to go then? I'm still not to sure about that, particularly with Frightful Presence.
If a monster has appropriate stats for its level but has Frightful Presence on top of that, then the broader definition would allow the monster to effectively lower the levels of all its opponents just by showing up. That seems too powerful.
Dragons in particular could do this easily, since their auras are big and their fly Speeds are enormous. People often complain that the threat they pose is one level higher than their listed level. Maybe this is why?
Then again, a dragon waiting around the corner could just trick the entire party into walking into the aura before the fight begins. Hmm...
Now that I think about it, there are stealth benefits to not causing the aura effect by approaching. If a dragon wants to Avoid Notice, it wouldn't do for its own Frightful Presence to give it away.
Not all dragons have frightful presence in monster core.
Like Diabolic dragon has a 90ft aura but conspirator dragon doesn't have one at all.
I hadn't noticed, but most still have both Frightful Presence and Stealth proficiency.
Well that just means that you might feel the fear before you see what is causing you to feel it right?
But if a dragon is avoiding notice they must have a large sections of cover to hide them. Those sections of cover might even block line of effect for the aura.
Well that just means that you might feel the fear before you see what is causing you to feel it right?
Yeah, the dragon might be undetected, but they likely wouldn't be unnoticed.
I think we're getting sidetracked though.
Maybe there should be a clause requiring the target to be aware of the monster.
Maybe "first enters" is a cue that means never make another check after that first one for that creature. Really never.
And we can interpret the immunity for one minute to actually apply to any frightful presence from other sources for that minute like when fighting multiple dragons after first aura takes affect and provides immunity none of the others get a chance to work on the pc.
It would mean the first time a pc encounters a specific dragon and become in range of the aura they roll. Now that pc is never again going to roll for that dragons FP.
If this is what was meant then it would make some sense narratively, once you've been in the presence of that dragon and experienced its fear effect you get used to it.
That can't be right. Permanent immunity to a monster's aura only happens with GM fiat after longterm exposure to the aura. Frightful Presence is even the example used to illustrate this.
Ah right it says this monster's frightful presence in the immunity
Alright, where were we? Right, the actual meaning of "entering."
So for most effects, only the target moving into the area should count rather than the area moving to the target. But for effects like Frightful Presence and Great Despair, this creates a conundrum because the approach of the PCs is the only way for the effect to happen.
I do think that would have its upsides. If you're outside a Frightful Presence (due to lack of line of effect, for example), then the prospect of entering that area is daunting because of the risk of being frightened. Likewise, PCs that would otherwise be quick to dash into melee will likely rethink that after watching an ally get paralyzed for 1d4 rounds. It gives the players something to think about.
But for an aura (which by design should be active at all times without requiring any actions) to require this much thought on the part of the monsters in order to even function is quite silly, I'll admit.
Back to the Ice Mummy, though. Someone said earlier that the Ice Mummy had somewhat lackluster stats and tools, and it needed liberal use of Great Despair to punch at its level. I guess the more generous interpretation is fine if it's that weak otherwise.
And I suppose the more broad Frightful Presence would behave more closely to how it worked in PF2e: as a free action "usually part of an attack or charge." Though I would think they could have just made Frightful Presence an actual free action to accomplish that.
But I do find it odd how different the "first enters" effects are from the regular "enters" effects. The latter almost always adds "starts its turn" or some other additional stipulation, while the former never does. What's up with that?
The reason for why "First enters" effects never add "start of its turn" is probably because the intention of the save only happening once.
These effects come with temporary immunity, which is enough to prevent repeat saves. Why bother with the word "first" at all?
The reason for why "First enters" effects never add "start of its turn" is probably because the intention of the save only happening once.These effects come with temporary immunity, which is enough to prevent repeat saves. Why bother with the word "first" at all?
Redundancy / assurance is a good idea and worth layering into the rules when possible. Especially when a single extra word can help lock-in the meaning like that, imo that's "good praxis."
Plus, there is actually a mechanical difference.
I'm not reading any specific aura's text atm, but I do remember a time where fighting multiple foes with a mal aura meant that once a PC gained immunity, that immunity applied to all the little foes, letting the PCs avoid re-rolling the same malady when "first entering" the aura of foe #2, #3, etc.
Immunity does not usually apply on fail (significant variance there), so limiting it to one fail per foe can be significant in swarm-y fight w/ many foes.
There are other effects that use "enter" strangely, too. Air Bubble is triggered when the target enters an unbreathable environment. But GM Core has this to say about what counts as entering:
As with flight, dispelling can be deadly if someone relies on magic to breathe underwater. It's generally best to avoid having enemies who can breathe underwater dispelling the water-breathing magic aiding PCs. Though PCs might be able to use air bubble and quickly cast water breathing again, having this happen repeatedly can be frustrating, and being forced to prepare an extremely high-level water breathing spell to avoid it isn't much fun either.
So even if nothing moves, the dev who wrote this passage seems convinced that if the PC loses the ability to breathe in the environment they are already in, that counts as entering an environment where they can't breathe.