Remastered oracle build guide

[blammit]

I've updated my prior oracle guide to be in line with the remaster changes.

Divine Gift: A Guide to the PF2e Oracle [Remaster]

[Gortle]

Thanks. There are a lot less highlights than the old oracle. I can't say I disagree.

[Tridus]

Pretty good guide. Might be worth noting in Tempest - Bottle the Storm that it doesn't work whatsoever if you're Cursebound 1.

I'm also pretty sure Cursebound 2 applies to ranged spell attacks, as they are ranged attacks, so its a harsher penalty than you're saying it is if you have things like Charged Javelin.

[blammit]

Tridus wrote:

Bottle the Storm that it doesn't work whatsoever if you're Cursebound 1.

Good catch, I've updated that section to reflect.

Tridus wrote:

I'm also pretty sure Cursebound 2 applies to ranged spell attacks, as they are ranged attacks, so its a harsher penalty than you're saying it is if you have things like Charged Javelin.

I've dug into this a fair bit. "Ranged attack roll" is a defined term that specifies attacks using dexterity, separate from a defined "spell attack roll" term. AON entry if you'd like to take a look. Paizo has mostly cleaned up the language surrounding attack rolls. There are some unclear legacy "ranged attack" references, but nothing that would contradict the Tempest curse giving spell attacks a pass.

[Tridus]

blammit wrote:

I've dug into this a fair bit. "Ranged attack roll" is a defined term that specifies attacks using dexterity, separate from a defined "spell attack roll" term. AON entry if you'd like to take a look. Paizo has mostly cleaned up the language surrounding attack rolls. There are some unclear legacy "ranged attack" references, but nothing that would contradict the Tempest curse giving spell attacks a pass.

I don't think thats true, since spell attacks take bonuses and penalties that apply to attack rolls:

Quote:

Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks

A ranged spell attack is a ranged attack. Tempest's Curse doesn't say "ranged weapon attack" so the weapon only exclusion doesn't apply. And if it did, then Ignition also couldn't benefit from Flanking since that applies to "melee attacks".

[blammit]

Ranged attack rolls are an explicitly defined term. Spell attack rolls are a separate explicitly defined term. The Tempest curse uses the phrase "ranged attack rolls." The fact that a spell attack is performed at range does not mean that it relies on a ranged attack roll. The first sentence in the quote below distinguishes the only two places that attack rolls exist: Strikes and spell attacks. If you're making a ranged attack roll, it's part of a Strike, which can only be performed as part of a weapon or unarmed attack, excluding the "ranged attack roll" penalty from applying to spell attacks.

Quote:

When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll. Attack rolls take a variety of forms and are often highly variable based on the weapon you are using for the attack, but there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. Spell attack rolls work a little bit differently, so they are explained separately on the next page.

Ranged attack rolls use Dexterity as their attribute modifier.

Ranged attack roll result = d20 roll + Dexterity modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties

Spell attack roll result = d20 roll + spellcasting attribute modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties

The logic of treating a "ranged attack rolls" penalty as a spell attack penalty has further implications, too. Under your reading, the clumsy condition applies to spell attacks despite clumsy explicitly affecting DEX-based checks and ranged attack rolls being called out as a direct example of DEX-based checks. Since spell attack rolls are never DEX-based, that reading contradicts itself. Also, if a ranged spell attack is a ranged attack, you can use an unspecified ranged spell attack to throw an item via Interact.

If making a spell attack roll, a character is not making a ranged attack roll, evidenced by the facts that they are explicitly defined as separate rules with separate proficiencies and separate rolls that use separate attributes. If the Tempest curse penalized spell attack rolls, it would say so.

[blammit]

Impossible Riposte does explicitly include ranged spell attacks under the term "ranged attack" since blazing bolt, the example spell, is a spell attack, but that's the only place it's truly defined in remaster books. I'd argue that's evidence for spell attacks being separate from ranged attack rolls. "Ranged attack" is the broader general term that can include ranged spell attacks while "ranged attack roll" is the narrower term with a specific definition of a DEX-based check (except when it's not, as in the brutal trait, but that's an even further example of specific over general). Mirror Shield sort of gets there, and there is a clear distinction between the stone giant's Swat Projectile reaction ("physical ranged attack") and lesser death's Lurking Death reaction. Based on an AoN search through remaster books and some digging through the Divine Mysteries PDF, those are the only effects that offer any clarity on the term "ranged attack."

All of those examples show that there is an umbrella term, "ranged attack," and that any further specification will be made in-text along the lines of "ranged attack roll," "ranged spell attack roll," or "physical ranged attack." If the intent behind the Tempest curse were to broadly affect all ranged attacks, it would be a penalty to "ranged attacks," not "ranged attack rolls."

On a separate track, the only two examples of a ranged attack roll outside of Strikes are the grappling hook and the net, both of which make reference to performing a ranged attack roll with simple weapon proficiency. There are no ranged attack rolls in the game without some tie to weapon proficiency, and the only two non-Strike examples of ranged attack rolls are used in weapon-like functions. I take that as evidence that ranged attack roll penalties meet the "special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks" definition.

One more weird RAW outcome of "ranged attack" as an umbrella term: you can throw oil with an unspecified ranged spell attack.

[WeStanAFail]

It's you!
I followed your guide when making my first pathfinder remastered character, an ash oracle.
You should know that my GM did not agree with your distinction between ranged and ranged spell attack rolls.

Aside from Tridus' argument that spell attacks also suffer from attack roll penalties, he argues:

For example the Prone condition says that with the "Take Cover" action you get Great Cover against ranged attack rolls. So in your case, an enemy would get a +4 AC bonus against bows and crossbows, but not against your ignition cantrip?"

Considering the oracle will rarely be making ranged weapon attacks, the intended ruling of the curse is pretty obvious...

[Lamp Flower]

WeStanAFail wrote:

For example the Prone condition says that with the "Take Cover" action you get Great Cover against ranged attack rolls. So in your case, an enemy would get a +4 AC bonus against bows and crossbows, but not against your ignition cantrip?"

FWIW, the prone condition does say "ranged attacks" not "ranged attack rolls", so the AC bonus would apply against ranged spell attacks regardless. At least, that's what it says on AoN.

Then again, the intention could very well be different. Curse balance being what it is, it's hard to say.

[Deriven Firelion]

Oracle cursebound feats are really strong now.

Foretell Harm: Double level extra damage. Keys at the start of the enemy's turn guaranteeing it goes off unless they are dead.

Whispers of Weakness: Now oracle is the best at figuring out weaknesses and lowest saving throw with no check. Just 1 curse level and you know it.

[Here4daFreeSwag]

Good to have some free remasterin' oracle buildin' guide stuff out there for PF2e+, blammit. ;)

[Tridus]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle cursebound feats are really strong now.

Foretell Harm: Double level extra damage. Keys at the start of the enemy's turn guaranteeing it goes off unless they are dead.

Whispers of Weakness: Now oracle is the best at figuring out weaknesses and lowest saving throw with no check. Just 1 curse level and you know it.

All of the level 1 Cursebound spells are good. These two are good. Nudge the Scales is a 1 action ranged Heal, which has lots of uses. Oracular Warning's initiative bonus stacks with things like the Scout exploration activity so you can stack up a significant initiative bonus on the whole party and going first matters.

I find it kind of frustrating in the sense that I find the 10-20 options largely worse than the 1-8 options, but it's pretty awesome for someone taking the Archtype.

[Deriven Firelion]

Tridus wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle cursebound feats are really strong now.

Foretell Harm: Double level extra damage. Keys at the start of the enemy's turn guaranteeing it goes off unless they are dead.

Whispers of Weakness: Now oracle is the best at figuring out weaknesses and lowest saving throw with no check. Just 1 curse level and you know it.

All of the level 1 Cursebound spells are good. These two are good. Nudge the Scales is a 1 action ranged Heal, which has lots of uses. Oracular Warning's initiative bonus stacks with things like the Scout exploration activity so you can stack up a significant initiative bonus on the whole party and going first matters.

I find it kind of frustrating in the sense that I find the 10-20 options largely worse than the 1-8 options, but it's pretty awesome for someone taking the Archtype.

New oracle is really well built and powerful. One of the best casters in the game. Though the curses are a mixed bag, so you have to pick that part well.

[Gortle]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Tridus wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle cursebound feats are really strong now.

Foretell Harm: Double level extra damage. Keys at the start of the enemy's turn guaranteeing it goes off unless they are dead.

Whispers of Weakness: Now oracle is the best at figuring out weaknesses and lowest saving throw with no check. Just 1 curse level and you know it.

All of the level 1 Cursebound spells are good. These two are good. Nudge the Scales is a 1 action ranged Heal, which has lots of uses. Oracular Warning's initiative bonus stacks with things like the Scout exploration activity so you can stack up a significant initiative bonus on the whole party and going first matters.

I find it kind of frustrating in the sense that I find the 10-20 options largely worse than the 1-8 options, but it's pretty awesome for someone taking the Archtype.

New oracle is really well built and powerful. One of the best casters in the game. Though the curses are a mixed bag, so you have to pick that part well.

I agree that the Oracle is great at low levels, but there is nothing much beyond that. The higher level powers are disappointing. So I don't consider it well built.

[Deriven Firelion]

Gortle wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Tridus wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Oracle cursebound feats are really strong now.

Foretell Harm: Double level extra damage. Keys at the start of the enemy's turn guaranteeing it goes off unless they are dead.

Whispers of Weakness: Now oracle is the best at figuring out weaknesses and lowest saving throw with no check. Just 1 curse level and you know it.

All of the level 1 Cursebound spells are good. These two are good. Nudge the Scales is a 1 action ranged Heal, which has lots of uses. Oracular Warning's initiative bonus stacks with things like the Scout exploration activity so you can stack up a significant initiative bonus on the whole party and going first matters.

I find it kind of frustrating in the sense that I find the 10-20 options largely worse than the 1-8 options, but it's pretty awesome for someone taking the Archtype.

New oracle is really well built and powerful. One of the best casters in the game. Though the curses are a mixed bag, so you have to pick that part well.

I agree that the Oracle is great at low levels, but there is nothing much beyond that. The higher level powers are disappointing. So I don't consider it well built.

Some of the high level focus spells are nice.

But really, the level 1 cursebound feats will be bread and butter feats, so you don't want or need much of an upgrade.

I have to disagree about the higher level features. With four spell slots and plenty of feats to add to your repertoire, you can become quite the diverse caster.

Then three resource pools with spells, curses, and focus points, you have massive pool of resources to draw from with good action economy. Divine Access at level 11 let's you add three spells from a wide choice to your spell list for no cost.

Knowledge of Shapes is a free action Spellshape for the cost of a curse rank.

Gifted power is an extra highest rank spell slot usable with a varieyt of spells.

Mysterious Repertoire is a pick a spell from any list and add it to yours.

Divine Effusion is more spell slots.

I think it is a very efficient, powerful caster with front-loaded power that will be useful across all levels and spell repertoire versatility usually reserved for the sorcerer. It's quite a powerful caster.

It may have the most casting power in the game with a good amount of versatility.

[Tridus]

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Gortle wrote:

I agree that the Oracle is great at low levels, but there is nothing much beyond that. The higher level powers are disappointing. So I don't consider it well built.

Some of the high level focus spells are nice.

But really, the level 1 cursebound feats will be bread and butter feats, so you don't want or need much of an upgrade.

I have to disagree about the higher level features. With four spell slots and plenty of feats to add to your repertoire, you can become quite the diverse caster.

Then three resource pools with spells, curses, and focus points, you have massive pool of resources to draw from with good action economy. Divine Access at level 11 let's you add three spells from a wide choice to your spell list for no cost.

Knowledge of Shapes is a free action Spellshape for the cost of a curse rank.

Gifted power is an extra highest rank spell slot usable with a varieyt of spells.

Mysterious Repertoire is a pick a spell from any list and add it to yours.

Divine Effusion is more spell slots.

I think it is a very efficient, powerful caster with front-loaded power that will be useful across all levels and spell repertoire versatility usually reserved for the sorcerer. It's quite a powerful caster.

It may have the most casting power in the game with a good amount of versatility.

Funny thing is that I think you're both right. :)

High level Oracle is really powerful. With 6 spell slots at its highest rank, 5 at some other rank, and 4 all the way down after that, with a large repertoire and a "pluck any spell off another list", the raw spellcasting power is very strong. Then you toss in the other stuff and it packs a punch at high level, especially since the low level Cursebound abilities are so good and remain relevant at any level.

That said, Gortle said specifically that the "higher level powers are disappointing"... and they are. The good Cursebound abilities are all front loaded, with the higher level stuff either being very situational or just not comparing well to what came earlier. Greater Revelation spells are like all the others: some are good, some are not. But what you'd normally want to see out of a unique class feature like Cursebound abilities is building up as you level to stronger ones, and that is just not what happens here. So it's not well designed in that perspective.

[Deriven Firelion]

Tridus wrote:

Deriven Firelion wrote:

Gortle wrote:

I agree that the Oracle is great at low levels, but there is nothing much beyond that. The higher level powers are disappointing. So I don't consider it well built.

Some of the high level focus spells are nice.

But really, the level 1 cursebound feats will be bread and butter feats, so you don't want or need much of an upgrade.

I have to disagree about the higher level features. With four spell slots and plenty of feats to add to your repertoire, you can become quite the diverse caster.

Then three resource pools with spells, curses, and focus points, you have massive pool of resources to draw from with good action economy. Divine Access at level 11 let's you add three spells from a wide choice to your spell list for no cost.

Knowledge of Shapes is a free action Spellshape for the cost of a curse rank.

Gifted power is an extra highest rank spell slot usable with a varieyt of spells.

Mysterious Repertoire is a pick a spell from any list and add it to yours.

Divine Effusion is more spell slots.

I think it is a very efficient, powerful caster with front-loaded power that will be useful across all levels and spell repertoire versatility usually reserved for the sorcerer. It's quite a powerful caster.

It may have the most casting power in the game with a good amount of versatility.

Funny thing is that I think you're both right. :)

High level Oracle is really powerful. With 6 spell slots at its highest rank, 5 at some other rank, and 4 all the way down after that, with a large repertoire and a "pluck any spell off another list", the raw spellcasting power is very strong. Then you toss in the other stuff and it packs a punch at high level, especially since the low level Cursebound abilities are so good and remain relevant at any level.

That said, Gortle said specifically that the "higher level powers are disappointing"... and they are. The good Cursebound abilities are all front loaded, with the higher level stuff either...

I do wish they received Effortless Concentration. Paizo seems to not like to give it to the pure divine casters even though divine casters have many of the best sustain spells. It's sometimes like Paizo designers give Effortless Concentration like a trap feat to classes that can't use it very well, then the classes that can use it well like the cleric or oracle don't get it.

I'm used to high level casters not getting many high quality features or feats. Casters are action starved with spells being what they get to increase their power.

So the best feats for higher level casters are feats that add more spellcasting power. Almost every caster is front-loaded and I think this is likely intentional because of the action starved nature of casting.

Oracle has some of the best base features of any caster, which makes them one of the best casters in the game.