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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I've updated my prior oracle guide to be in line with the remaster changes.
Divine Gift: A Guide to the PF2e Oracle [Remaster]
Thanks. There are a lot less highlights than the old oracle. I can't say I disagree.
Pretty good guide. Might be worth noting in Tempest - Bottle the Storm that it doesn't work whatsoever if you're Cursebound 1.
I'm also pretty sure Cursebound 2 applies to ranged spell attacks, as they are ranged attacks, so its a harsher penalty than you're saying it is if you have things like Charged Javelin.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Tridus wrote: Bottle the Storm that it doesn't work whatsoever if you're Cursebound 1. Good catch, I've updated that section to reflect.
Tridus wrote: I'm also pretty sure Cursebound 2 applies to ranged spell attacks, as they are ranged attacks, so its a harsher penalty than you're saying it is if you have things like Charged Javelin. I've dug into this a fair bit. "Ranged attack roll" is a defined term that specifies attacks using dexterity, separate from a defined "spell attack roll" term. AON entry if you'd like to take a look. Paizo has mostly cleaned up the language surrounding attack rolls. There are some unclear legacy "ranged attack" references, but nothing that would contradict the Tempest curse giving spell attacks a pass.
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blammit wrote: I've dug into this a fair bit. "Ranged attack roll" is a defined term that specifies attacks using dexterity, separate from a defined "spell attack roll" term. AON entry if you'd like to take a look. Paizo has mostly cleaned up the language surrounding attack rolls. There are some unclear legacy "ranged attack" references, but nothing that would contradict the Tempest curse giving spell attacks a pass. I don't think thats true, since spell attacks take bonuses and penalties that apply to attack rolls:
Quote: Spell attack rolls benefit from any bonuses or penalties to attack rolls, including your multiple attack penalty, but not any special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks A ranged spell attack is a ranged attack. Tempest's Curse doesn't say "ranged weapon attack" so the weapon only exclusion doesn't apply. And if it did, then Ignition also couldn't benefit from Flanking since that applies to "melee attacks".
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ranged attack rolls are an explicitly defined term. Spell attack rolls are a separate explicitly defined term. The Tempest curse uses the phrase "ranged attack rolls." The fact that a spell attack is performed at range does not mean that it relies on a ranged attack roll. The first sentence in the quote below distinguishes the only two places that attack rolls exist: Strikes and spell attacks. If you're making a ranged attack roll, it's part of a Strike, which can only be performed as part of a weapon or unarmed attack, excluding the "ranged attack roll" penalty from applying to spell attacks.
Quote: When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll. Attack rolls take a variety of forms and are often highly variable based on the weapon you are using for the attack, but there are three main types: melee attack rolls, ranged attack rolls, and spell attack rolls. Spell attack rolls work a little bit differently, so they are explained separately on the next page.
Ranged attack rolls use Dexterity as their attribute modifier.
Ranged attack roll result = d20 roll + Dexterity modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
Spell attack roll result = d20 roll + spellcasting attribute modifier + proficiency bonus + other bonuses + penalties
The logic of treating a "ranged attack rolls" penalty as a spell attack penalty has further implications, too. Under your reading, the clumsy condition applies to spell attacks despite clumsy explicitly affecting DEX-based checks and ranged attack rolls being called out as a direct example of DEX-based checks. Since spell attack rolls are never DEX-based, that reading contradicts itself. Also, if a ranged spell attack is a ranged attack, you can use an unspecified ranged spell attack to throw an item via Interact.
If making a spell attack roll, a character is not making a ranged attack roll, evidenced by the facts that they are explicitly defined as separate rules with separate proficiencies and separate rolls that use separate attributes. If the Tempest curse penalized spell attack rolls, it would say so.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Impossible Riposte does explicitly include ranged spell attacks under the term "ranged attack" since blazing bolt, the example spell, is a spell attack, but that's the only place it's truly defined in remaster books. I'd argue that's evidence for spell attacks being separate from ranged attack rolls. "Ranged attack" is the broader general term that can include ranged spell attacks while "ranged attack roll" is the narrower term with a specific definition of a DEX-based check (except when it's not, as in the brutal trait, but that's an even further example of specific over general). Mirror Shield sort of gets there, and there is a clear distinction between the stone giant's Swat Projectile reaction ("physical ranged attack") and lesser death's Lurking Death reaction. Based on an AoN search through remaster books and some digging through the Divine Mysteries PDF, those are the only effects that offer any clarity on the term "ranged attack."
All of those examples show that there is an umbrella term, "ranged attack," and that any further specification will be made in-text along the lines of "ranged attack roll," "ranged spell attack roll," or "physical ranged attack." If the intent behind the Tempest curse were to broadly affect all ranged attacks, it would be a penalty to "ranged attacks," not "ranged attack rolls."
On a separate track, the only two examples of a ranged attack roll outside of Strikes are the grappling hook and the net, both of which make reference to performing a ranged attack roll with simple weapon proficiency. There are no ranged attack rolls in the game without some tie to weapon proficiency, and the only two non-Strike examples of ranged attack rolls are used in weapon-like functions. I take that as evidence that ranged attack roll penalties meet the "special benefits or penalties that apply only to weapon or unarmed attacks" definition.
One more weird RAW outcome of "ranged attack" as an umbrella term: you can throw oil with an unspecified ranged spell attack.
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