A Tale of Woe from a Level One Abomination Vaults Group (Spoilers)

[Balkoth]

A tale of water and stone, or how we got destroyed by

Spoiler:

the River Drake

First of all, I like the DM and I think he's doing his best. I don't think he's trying to screw over the party or anything weird/malicious and he has seemed very reasonable overall so far in the campaign. I think two things can be true at the same time:

1, our party did not handle the encounter properly

2, the enemy in question seems very overtuned for its level

Our intrepid group, which nearly had someone die the second session due to

Spoiler:

the Giant Scorpion's venom,

consists of a Warpriest, a Swashbuckler, a Rogue, and of course a wise/smart/stunningly good looking Sorcerer (myself, naturally).

Here begins my tale (and I will do my best to recount things factually without editorializing)...

Spoiler:

We found the room with the frog carcass and were able to deduce a River Drake had been eating it. Through some Arcana checks on my part we knew it would be hostile and had a AoE acid spit attack. We were worried it would attack us later when we were engaged with something else or low on resources, so we elected to set a trap for it.

Literally, because we found a Spike Snare.

Our plan was to lure it to a chokepoint where there was a hole in the outer stone wall of the structure. The Swashbuckler would try to block the entry, the Rogue would be hiding behind and walk up to flank/sneak attack, and the Warpriest and I would unload all of our magical might (three Force Barrages on my part would deal an average of 33.5 damage over three rounds if I could free cast with no save/attack roll required).

Unfortunately, we were having trouble getting the River Drake's attention. The Warpriest decided to walk down the ramp of rubble and move some 50ish feet to the northwest near the water's edge and make some noise (about 70 feet from the rest of the party IIRC).

That got the drake's attention. It emerged from the water. Roll initiative.

The Warpriest fired off a Divine Lance. Natural 20. Critical hit. Dealt 11 damage.

River Drake spat acid at the Warpriest. Warpriest rolled an 8 total on his reflex save, critical failure. Since we knew the spit did 4d6 damage (14 average), this meant the 20 HP Warpriest (Dwarf) was essentially dying right off the bat. We suggested he burn a hero point to reroll his save, he did, and actually succeeded. Took 10 damage (rolled damage was like 6/5/3/6 so much higher than average and then halved).

Drake then swooped in to stand next to the Warpriest.

Rogue runs to try to get near the Warpriest and help.

Swashbuckler runs down the ramp and is just in range to fire an cantrip of Needle Darts. Miss.

I run down the ramp as an action, but the drake is still around the edge of the building at this point for me. If I move again I can't cast a two action spell. So I use Runic Weapon on the Swashbuckler -- not great on a d6 weapon, but I don't seem to have other good options.

Warpriest is up. He casts Runic Weapon on himself and swings out at the drake.

The Strike triggers the reaction of the drake. The drake rolls a 16 I believe for total of 28, critical hit. Deals 20 damage. The Warpriest drops before his strike goes off. Would have dropped even without taking any damage from the acid spit. Also average hit (rather than a crit) would also have dropped him since he did take 10 damage from the acid spit.

Drake's turn, regains reaction. Does a Draconic Frenzy at the rogue. Misses on all three attacks. Flies about 20 feet up into the air with its last action.

Rogue fires his hand crossbow at the drake. Hit. Deals two damage. Draws a dagger and throws it. Misses.

Swashbuckler attempts another Needle Darts since he can't melee the flying drake. Miss.

I Force Barrage for 9 damage (3d4+4). We have 22 damage dealt to this thing and it's still >50% HP. And I only have one Force Barrage left.

Warpriest continues dying.

Drake swoops in and savages the rogue who is now dying.

Swashbuckler retreats back up the ramp and into a position to hit the drake with the trap.

I follow.

Warpriest and rogue are dying.

Drake uses a speed surge, moves 100 feet, and walks right into the trap. Critically succeeds on its reflex save, no damage. Still has two actions due to the speed surge so Draconic Frenzies against the Swashbuckler. Swashbuckler goes down.

I run like hell closing doors along the way since there's no way I'm winning this fight at this point. Thing still has 23+ HP and I have one Force Barrage left.

------------------------

Like I said originally, I think we could have handled the encounter better but the River Drake also seems very overtuned. Things like...

1, the reaction of literally "Anytime a PC uses a melee attack (reach or not), I can use a Reaction to Strike back." The only way to avoid this is...to not attack in melee. Ranged attacks from 15+ feet away or spells only. Even a Fighter with a Reach weapon who gets a Reactive Strike as the drake approaches has a 25% chance of just going into dying without the Reactive Strike going off. Fighter thinks he's getting off an attack on the approach and is dropped instead. The "solution" here seems to be really making sure you launch a bunch of attacks in a round if anyone is going to melee the drake, but it still seems incredibly punishing. Now, a Fighter with a shield raised would reduce the odds of being crit and could survive a crit on average, but that also requires the chance to raise the shield. And standing there with a shield raised has problems because...

2, the drake can fly and has a ranged attack usable every 2-7 rounds that deals 14 damage in an AoE. So you can't group up to protect each other without the thing just hovering up above and AoEing you. 14 damage, incidentally, has a very good chance of dropping a wizard/sorcerer if it rolls very slightly above average (or the wizard/sorcerer is an elf or has lower con).

3, the Draconic Frenzy coupled with Speed Surge means this thing can move from 100 feet away and attack three times in one round. So even trying to engage from extreme range with 100+ reach spells and ranged attacks is extremely difficult.

Just one of those is already very dangerous and it has all three.

Anyway.

I think this fight was technically winnable with close to ideal tactics but man it would be rough and can easily destroy a lot of groups. Felt like a level 4 encounter at a minimum (Severe), arguably an Extreme encounter (pretty even fight, reasonable chance of TPK).

Thus ends my tale.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Dragons are really nasty in 2e, and optimally played the river drake would probably TPK a lot of lvl 2 groups as well. It was very close with my own group, which had an extra level under their belt due to starting with the beginner box.

Your plan sounds solid, the execution not so much. As a player i think i would have announced to be extra careful not to run into this beast while hoping for a mercyful DM.

[NorrKnekten]

I've done my fair share of GMing trough AV. And I dont think that either encounter mentioned are neccesarily overtuned but both absolutely are severe-threat and Extreme-threat bosses against level 1 party.

The execution did mean that you also fought, in the open. on its own terms instead of in tight, narrow spaces where rogue and swashbuckler excel. I am not sure if you had any measure of defence against reactions, Forbidding Ward, Protection, Raise shield and so on.

Personally though, In the early levels I always feel dread when the party is stumbling into an encounter above their level. Just a few bad dicerolls are typically enough for a TPK at that point in the game.

[OrochiFuror]

My group was Fighter, Champion, rogue and my swash. I remember swimming to the drake to talk to it, being a Kobold with Draconic sycophant, but it didn't end well. I drew them back to the edge of the water so the group could gang up on them. Having a good front line, multiple 10 HP classes helps, especially with a champion.

Did you clear the top floor? Should maybe level two by the time you fight the drake. The only fights my group had difficulty with was the tiny room where a thing drops down on you, the ghouls that we technically lost to and the sonic aoe creature.

Those were all rough fights, swash felt terrible for many fights. I didn't enjoy the adventure as I felt very ineffective tickling with a d4 weapon and missing a lot.

Your group doesn't look like they have much reliable damage, rogue and swash aren't great for damage especially in AV. They also aren't great front liners, swash is ok but just doesn't have the damage to take up the initiator role IMO. As for warpriest, casters don't belong in the front no matter what build your doing, its soso at lower levels but will just get worse with time. Having your heal battery initiate combat is a huge no no.

[Tarlane]

A long time back Monty Cook made an online megadungeon called 'Dungeon a Day' that had a section on the tenants they used to create the dungeon. They don't apply to all of them, but one that applies to most and I like to remind my players during the start of these type of campaigns is that the dungeon increases in difficulty on its own(rather than based on your level) and can have a risk reward. Sneaking into lower levels to risk picking up some above level treasure can be a fun challenge, but also realize that you can walk into things you aren't yet ready for and planning for that and having an escape plan can be a benefit too.

When we ran AV, my players similarly identified what was nesting down there and decided they weren't yet prepared for that fight. They snuck into there at level 2 with some better gear including consumables that could help with the breath weapon. Even then it was a decently tough fight.

It was good for your DM to have telegraphed what the encounter was for you so you could come at it purposefully, and whether or not he should have pulled some punches for a level 1 group is up to the groups style. But don't be afraid to note that some things might be over your head and need to be resolved when you are better prepared.

[Balkoth]

NorrKnekten wrote:

And I dont think that either encounter mentioned are neccesarily overtuned but both absolutely are severe-threat and Extreme-threat bosses against level 1 party.

I mean, by definition that means they're overtuned :)

The drake is considered a moderate encounter (+2) at level 3.

If it's severe or extreme threat it should be level 4 or 5.

NorrKnekten wrote:

I am not sure if you had any measure of defence against reactions, Forbidding Ward, Protection, Raise shield and so on.

That all sounds like stuff the warpriest would have access to and no one else.

OrochiFuror wrote:

Did you clear the top floor? Should maybe level two by the time you fight the drake.

We're on the entry floor with the Mitflits and scorpion. We have not gone down a level. We found this stuff on the western side of the ruins, close to the kobold haunt.

OrochiFuror wrote:

Those were all rough fights, swash felt terrible for many fights. I didn't enjoy the adventure as I felt very ineffective tickling with a d4 weapon and missing a lot.

Yeah, the Swashbuckler is hitting for 1d6+4 but only a buckler...feels a rogue would be hitting as hard with sneak attack bonus and a fighter would be hitting either way harder or at least slightly harder with a better shield.

Is Swashbuckler just not good?

OrochiFuror wrote:

Your group doesn't look like they have much reliable damage, rogue and swash aren't great for damage especially in AV.

Yes, I originally suggested I play a 2H fighter with a halberd or greatsword to act as a fulcrum but they wanted an arcane caster.

Tarlane wrote:

When we ran AV, my players similarly identified what was nesting down there and decided they weren't yet prepared for that fight.

There was no "down there?" We were told the milestone leveling indicated we basically needed to clear the whole first floor including the drake to hit level 2.

Again, I think if we had to stuck our initial plan we could have prevailed, but it was way harder than the scorpion or things like the two Giant Flies.

[NorrKnekten]

Balkoth wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

And I dont think that either encounter mentioned are neccesarily overtuned but both absolutely are severe-threat and Extreme-threat bosses against level 1 party.

I mean, by definition that means they're overtuned :)

Not really, Its still just a moderate encounter for a 1st level but located in a place where it excels. Normally you don't even encounter it until level 2. And it is not like some other creatures who have access to spells above its level, Insane DCs or otherwise over the top stats or worse yet physical resistances.

I think what happened here was that you sought out the creature being fully prepared, and fought it in the worst possible scenario for your party setup. With plenty of bad luck involved too ofcourse.

Minor spoiler warnings regarding the creature:

For its level;
Its saves arent that good,
Its slow when its stuck using ground speed,
it understands a language so linguistic skills work on it if you speak it,
It doesn't have alot of hitpoints,
its AC is horrible,
It's reaction isnt triggered by movement or spellcasting.

The only thing it really has going for it is speed, strikes and breath.
Yes it is a glass cannon that loves taking its targets one by one
It is absolutely horrible to deal with if if you spread out over a larger area.

But the moment you box it in and start forcing it to use actions just to recover from prone its pretty much already dead. It can't even frenzy if you trip it and move away.

Minor spoiler as to why I dont think you needed to fight it:

Having to kill the drake to advance to level 2 sounds weird though.You said the party was worried it might attack while you were already engaged with something else.

Are you absolutely sure you needed to kill the drake before level 2, Or did you seek it out before being fully prepared? Because as hinted by Tarlane, The drake isnt found at the first floor unless you seek it out.

[Tarlane]

Balkath wrote:

There was no "down there?" We were told the milestone leveling indicated we basically needed to clear the whole first floor including the drake to hit level 2.

Again, I think if we had to stuck our initial plan we could have...

I think that might be something of a discussion for the GM. You don't want milestone leveling to be too rigid or it can be punishing for the party. You can't really expect a party to find absolutely every secret or do every fight.

The Drake can be worth a decent chunk of xp, butif I was doing actual XP rather than milestone, I'd give the party some xp for figuring out and temporarily avoiding an encounter and then give them the rest when they go back and complete it. So in milestone I would consider whether they had done some extra stuff around town or maybe let them do a more normal encounter past where I had intended to level them. But honestly, I'd more likely just level them when they were ready to go to the next floor.

The purpose of milestone is to help players not need to be murder hobos to level. You get a level when you have advanced the story past a certain point(in a megadungeon, that is probably starting the next floor). If you have to go fight everything, then you are probably better off with XP. Are the players just taking a quick look at the next floor but still have a fair bit of the current floor to explore? Not ready to level. Are they considering that floor done even though they didn't find a secret door that had another few fights behind it? Ready to level.

[Grumpus]

As a GM, if my party wanted to lure and fight this thing at level-1, I would just have it off hunting somewhere else in the swamp until the party was level-2.

[Balkoth]

NorrKnekten wrote:

its AC is horrible

19 AC seems pretty good for its level? Look at the Legacy version.

NorrKnekten wrote:

Are you absolutely sure you needed to kill the drake before level 2, Or did you seek it out before being fully prepared? Because as hinted by Tarlane, The drake isnt found at the first floor unless you seek it out.

We discussed whether we should try to fight the drake now or see if we could hit level 2 first.

The DM said hitting level 2 for milestones involved clearing the entire first floor.

NorrKnekten wrote:

You don't want milestone leveling to be too rigid or it can be punishing for the party. You can't really expect a party to find absolutely every secret or do every fight.

I think it's basically "When the players and DM feel the party is basically done with the current floor and are ready to descend, gain a level."

So missing out a few secrets isn't going to punish us. But we can't simply skip an encounter and come back after we've done one or more lower levels.

I think.

[Dr. Frank Funkelstein]

Maybe the DM just needs a bit more experience - of your next party wiping to the River Drake again. Well, hopefully not.

[OrochiFuror]

Yeah, I think my group did everything else on the top floor first, I don't recall if we leveled first or not though.

I wouldn't say swash is bad, though both swash and rogue aren't great for AV do to above average amount of precision immune enemies. Swash is just awkward to me as it's very dependent on how you build, rather low damage, slightly above average AC and some utility abilities. You need to make those utility powers do some heavy work to make up for the lower damage. I chose battle dancer but for my group all it's style abilities were useless, so it wasn't a good time for me. If you get good rolls, AKA not me, then you can risk building to strike+finisher and I'm sure that feels better when it works.
Just doing tumble, finisher, block every round wasn't great damage and didn't feel engaging either.

What was the group looking for in an arcane caster? My group was rather anti caster, we didn't really feel like casters brought much to the table, specially only doing 1-10.

[NorrKnekten]

Balkoth wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

its AC is horrible

19 AC seems pretty good for its level? Look at the Legacy version.

Ok, That confirms that you are using the pre-remaster stats which places its AC at 19 that is the high AC for character building, Which still isn't impressive when it only has one save higher than moderate, With one save being closer to low. Which would mean that as long as atleast one character having a decent strength you are looking at a creature that spends most time offguard.

Balkoth wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

Are you absolutely sure you needed to kill the drake before level 2, Or did you seek it out before being fully prepared? Because as hinted by Tarlane, The drake isnt found at the first floor unless you seek it out.

The DM said hitting level 2 for milestones involved clearing the entire first floor.

NorrKnekten wrote:

You don't want milestone leveling to be too rigid or it can be punishing for the party. You can't really expect a party to find absolutely every secret or do every fight.

I think it's basically "When the players and DM feel the party is basically done with the current floor and are ready to descend, gain a level."

So missing out a few secrets isn't going to punish us. But we can't simply skip an encounter and come back after we've done one or more lower levels.

Yes but as previously stated, That drake is listed as a Low 2 encounter and isn't found at the first floor unless sought out near the water (there are a few encounters like that in APs this author has worked on), The GM might not want to give away such information while at the table and would by the guidelines not be able to give you a level up until you had cleared the short blue ones, the stained window room, see the lighthouse lantern glow, and The light near the house at the other end of the pier.

I cannot answer for your GM obviously. I personally think the conditions for milestone leveling is better left secret and that hinting on places left unexplored is the better alternative. If you leveled first though then yeah you still fought it at the wrong place for the party. That happens.

[NorrKnekten]

OrochiFuror wrote:

What was the group looking for in an arcane caster? My group was rather anti caster, we didn't really feel like casters brought much to the table, specially only doing 1-10.

Why they were looking for an arcane caster? because their other caster was divine and its a rather restricted list in comparison especially if they were prepping buffs and heal. Arcane by comparison have an easy time hitting weaknesses and tossing out a decent amount of ranged damage.

Some very prominent buffs to aren't found on the divine list, Like Haste.

[OrochiFuror]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Why they were looking for an arcane caster? because their other caster was divine and its a rather restricted list in comparison especially if they were prepping buffs and heal. Arcane by comparison have an easy time hitting weaknesses and tossing out a decent amount of ranged damage.

Some very prominent buffs to aren't found on the divine list, Like Haste.

You aren't the OP, so this might be why you would like an arcane caster. Primal can buff and nuke just as well, Kinetisist would be more reliable long day damage, Animist would be more flexible, there's other options depending on what they were looking for. Gone are the days of arcane casters being able to just fix problems, that's almost entirely done by skills in PF2 so they might have had a perception issue where what they wanted didn't actually fill the role they were looking for.