They absolutely don't work the same.
Assumed Form spells out pretty clearly what it does.
It works like Disguise Self. At 7th level it's a polymorph effect, instead of illusion (you're body is physically changed), At 11th level it last indefinitely. At 15th level, you can also gain the size bonus change to your ability scores, as if you were using alter self (meaning you can get a bonus to strength or dex depending on what you chose) and darkvision, low light vision, scent, and swim if the thing you're turning into has that.
The main thing with the polymorph tag onto Assumed Form is it prevent you from using any other polymorph effect. You would technically gain any natural attacks (once you get to 15th level, because prior to that you can only use the disguise self version which doesn't allow for changing of creature type, just changing your appearance). And again with the "polymorph size change" bit, it would only apply at 15th level because again your creature can't be changed with disguise self. At 15th level, as a GM I would rule the effect from Alter Self override the normal part of polymorph ability score changes.
I guess prior to level 12, the abilities work very similarly. At 12th level Malleable Flesh allows the user to slip through tiny cracks. And then at 15th level Assumed Form works like Alter Self.
I guess your question is, should you apply the restrictions of polymorph to the Malleable Flesh ability...and if that's the case then yes I think that makes sense. Of course they're mostly not relevant, since Disguise Self only alters your appearance to the same creature type (including subtype), it does not allow for different races. So you can look like a different human, but still a human.
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They are different and work differently.
Both are initially based on disguise self. The oracle revelations grants the option to use it as a polymorph starting at 7th level (but you don't have to). The vigilante talent never becomes a polymorph.
A vigilante with horns and a tail still has those appendages, it's just disguising those features by shaping its flesh in ways to conceal them. And remember that disguise self does not allow you to change your creature type, though it can look like a different subtype that doesn't have horns. It can still gore an opponent, though that would of course count as "interacting" with it.
I don't know, but I would suspect the vigilante talent is not a polymorph in order to make it more useful. If it was a polymorph, the vigilante could not be under the effect of another beneficial polymorph.
Fair point about Disguise Self technically allowing for different subtype, but the end result (as already noted) is that you don't gain any abilities. So even if you changed your subtype to one with a bite or claw attack, you don't actually get those. Somehow you superficial have features that look like those, but they don't actually function. And same if you have those features and turn into something that doesn't have them, you new form will make it look like you don't have those features, but they still function. It's not until Assumed Form start to function like Alter Self where that might happen.
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The shapechanger subtype in this case gives no benefits. The only it gives it proficiency with its natural weapons, simple weapons and those weapons and armor mentioned in the description. Since it grants no natural attacks and there is no description mentioning any weapons and armor it gains nothing. The Vigilante already has proficiency in simple weapons. But the vigilante is affected by effects that target shapechanger subtype. This makes having the subtype more of a disadvantage then an advantage. I suspect that this was deliberate as a way to balance the ability.
The first difference is that malleable Flesh does not totally alter your appearance. Some of the vigilante’s ascetics appear in all forms which cuts the bonus to disguise from +10 to +5. Malleable Flesh also reduces the vigilante’s seamless disguise bonus from +20 to +10. That means the vigilante with malleable flesh actually has less of a bonus than the standard vigilante to appear as his alternate identity. This gives the vigilante with malleable flesh ha a +5 bonus to appear as something different than one of their identities and a +15 to appear as their other identity. They give up some of the bonus to be able to appear in many different forms. Assumed form on the other hand grants the full benefit from disguise person. So, in reality it is actually better at disguising yourself the malleable flesh.
Another difference is that malleable flesh gives you the compression ability at 1st level and the ability to pass through narrow opening or small cracks at 12t level. These abilities are available to the character at any time and do not require that they be in a different form.
At 15th level Assumed form functions as alter self so it gives you the size bonus to your ability scores and the racial abilities of the form. At this level you do actually gain the natural attacks of the form you assume.
So, while these abilities seem similar, they are actually quite different. Malleable Flesh gives you more than just the ability to disguise yourself but has some drawbacks. Assumed form starts off weaker, but in a lot of ways is much stronger especially once you reach 15th level.
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The shapechanger subtype in this case gives no benefits. The only it gives it proficiency with its natural weapons, simple weapons and those weapons and armor mentioned in the description. Since it grants no natural attacks and there is no description mentioning any weapons and armor it gains nothing. The Vigilante already has proficiency in simple weapons. But the vigilante is affected by effects that target shapechanger subtype. This makes having the subtype more of a disadvantage then an advantage.
I don't know that I would say that. There are a handful of feats (like Shapeshifter Style) that require you to have the Shapechanger subtype. And there's the rare occurrences like being baleful polymorphed - a shapechanger can return to their natural form as a standard action.
On the negative side you've got a weapon (Shifter's Sorrow) and being a valid target for bane (shapechanger) and favored enemy (shapechanger).
It's close to a wash, probably a slight benefit unless you happen to be in a campaign that hates shapechangers.
Fair point about Disguise Self technically allowing for different subtype, but the end result (as already noted) is that you don't gain any abilities. So even if you changed your subtype to one with a bite or claw attack, you don't actually get those. Somehow you superficial have features that look like those, but they don't actually function. And same if you have those features and turn into something that doesn't have them, you new form will make it look like you don't have those features, but they still function. It's not until Assumed Form start to function like Alter Self where that might happen.1] Attacks are not abilities.
2] Assumed form is a polymorph effect sisnce level seven.
3] The polymorph rules state that you get any attack your form has.
4] Assumed form lets you turn into creatures of your subtype that can have other attacks.
5] If you turn into a creature with attacks you don't have using Assumed form you gain those attacks.These are not points i'm discussing, it's written in the rules.
What i asked is: Does Malleable Flesh work the same? cause if it doesn't you can attack with invisible appendages and since the transformation is real the enemy cannot disbelief it, making the situation absurd.
I understand what the polymorph general rules say, but you don't gain natural attacks from it. Because that's not how Disguise Self works. I get that this is a weird quirk of adding the polymorph trait to Disguise Self, but as a GM you would never convince me the ability is intended to add the attacks of whatever humanoid you transform into, because the base spell version doesn't. If it was intended to add Natural Attacks I would say it needs to call that out more specifically, than expecting people to draw the conclusion "oh because this becomes a polymorph effect, they'll totally get the natural attacks at that point". No, just no.
Now, when Assumed Form (at 15th level) allows you to use it as Alter Self, then you would get the natural attacks of that form.
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Yep but even interacting with them is not an issue here because Malleable Flesh says it cannot be disbelieved, meaning that even if you attack with them the opponent will not be able to see them and that makes no sense, hence the question.They are different and work differently.
Both are initially based on disguise self. The oracle revelations grants the option to use it as a polymorph starting at 7th level (but you don't have to). The vigilante talent never becomes a polymorph.
A vigilante with horns and a tail still has those appendages, it's just disguising those features by shaping its flesh in ways to conceal them. And remember that disguise self does not allow you to change your creature type, though it can look like a different subtype that doesn't have horns. It can still gore an opponent, though that would of course count as "interacting" with it.
I don't know, but I would suspect the vigilante talent is not a polymorph in order to make it more useful. If it was a polymorph, the vigilante could not be under the effect of another beneficial polymorph.
I think you may have gotten the abilities backwards. Assumed Form (if you take the "polymorph" option at 7th level) doesn't allow a save. Malleable flesh has no such language. Not only that, malleable flesh only grants half the disguise bonus an actual disguise self spell does.
The way I read the "appearance alteration" portion of malleable flesh is that it the moving of skin and musculature works like slapping some clay on various parts of your body (or removing some). It may not stand up to close scrutiny (like touching).
Well, it wouldn't be a will save to disbelieve (or be foiled by something like truesight). But it would make sense to allow for a perception check of some sort to realize something was up.
And no, I am not an AI. I have been active on these forums for decades.
That's misleading Mysterious Stranger! I can look at your post history and see your first post was in 2011. So saying decades is misleading. You've been posting here for over a decade, but not two!
;)
Since I posted in two different decades (2010's and 2020's) that counts as two decades.
:)
