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Couldn't read when i postedv yesterday, both Battle Form and Change Shape are polymorph effects so the way they function should be similar if not identical.

I recently discovered there's still people playing PFS1 and so i started theorycrfting a PFS-legal character that i might eventually try to play.

The idea wasto play a Swarm Monger Druid but my plans came to a halt when i couldn't understand how some interactions are supposed to work in the game.

I'll make a list of all the interactions that make me scratch my head in hope that at least some of the find an answer.

1. How does the Fecund Familiar ability interact with the Merge With Familiar spell?

https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Druid%20Swarm%20Mong er

https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Merge%20with%20Familiar

What happens if i first merge with the familiar and then transform it into a swarm?
What happens if i first transform it into a swarm than merge it with me?

In both cases, does it retain the immunity to damage and effects?
Does it retain the limitless effect duration while merged?

Or is this interactiion PFS legal but completely unregulated and decided by the DM based on how much he likes you?

Honestly i don't have any idea on how this interaction is supposed to work based on rules.

2. What happens if i take the Mauler archetype and turn my familiar medium with Battle Form?

https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Familiar%20Mauler

What happens if i first turn it medium and then into a swarm?
What about the opposite?

My interpretation here is thatin both cases the familiar occupies 4 contiguous 5by5 squares but the creature receives the damage increase to his swarm attack as usual, get 5 foor of reach they cannot use since they still deal damage to creatures they stand on, and get the usual maluses to stealth and flight.
Probably the number of creatures in the swarm is also reduced, following the swarm subtype description, not like it really matters since it's just visual.

"A swarm of Tiny creatures consists of 300 nonflying creatures or 1,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Diminutive creatures consists of 1,500 nonflying creatures or 5,000 flying creatures. A swarm of Fine creatures consists of 10,000 creatures, whether they are flying or not."

3. What happens if the Swarm Monger dips into First World Wizard for the Fey-Touched Familiar that has the Change Shape ability, a polymorph effect this time that should interact differently compared to Battle Form.

https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Wizard%20First%20Wor ld%20Caller

My reading this time is that the familiar if turned into a swarm and then into a human through change shape ir loses the swarm attack by polymorph rules but the subtype remains so i'm a little cunfused.

4. What about the swarm attack itself, is it a natural attack?
The natural attack rules don't mention all of the possible natural attacks, so they might be.
Not only that but many swarms use stings for their additional effects, and they fall into the natural attack category, also the non-swarm version of some of these creatures have natural attacks implying that biting and stinging is what they do when they attack as a swarm but this is already outside of rules territory and more in the common sense one.

So, would an amulet of mighty fists equippped onto the base creature give the bonuses to it when it turns into a swarm?
What about a spell like magic Fang?

Thanks to anyone who replies, tried to look everywhere but i couldn't find even a single answer to all of these questions.

The shapechanger subtype in this case gives no benefits. The only it gives it proficiency with its natural weapons, simple weapons and those weapons and armor mentioned in the description. Since it grants no natural attacks and there is no description mentioning any weapons and armor it gains nothing. The Vigilante already has proficiency in simple weapons. But the vigilante is affected by effects that target shapechanger subtype. This makes having the subtype more of a disadvantage then an advantage. I suspect that this was deliberate as a way to balance the ability.

The first difference is that malleable Flesh does not totally alter your appearance. Some of the vigilante’s ascetics appear in all forms which cuts the bonus to disguise from +10 to +5. Malleable Flesh also reduces the vigilante’s seamless disguise bonus from +20 to +10. That means the vigilante with malleable flesh actually has less of a bonus than the standard vigilante to appear as his alternate identity. This gives the vigilante with malleable flesh ha a +5 bonus to appear as something different than one of their identities and a +15 to appear as their other identity. They give up some of the bonus to be able to appear in many different forms. Assumed form on the other hand grants the full benefit from disguise person. So, in reality it is actually better at disguising yourself the malleable flesh.

Another difference is that malleable flesh gives you the compression ability at 1st level and the ability to pass through narrow opening or small cracks at 12t level. These abilities are available to the character at any time and do not require that they be in a different form.

At 15th level Assumed form functions as alter self so it gives you the size bonus to your ability scores and the racial abilities of the form. At this level you do actually gain the natural attacks of the form you assume.

So, while these abilities seem similar, they are actually quite different. Malleable Flesh gives you more than just...

Are you an artificial intelligence?

They are different and work differently.

Both are initially based on disguise self. The oracle revelations grants the option to use it as a polymorph starting at 7th level (but you don't have to). The vigilante talent never becomes a polymorph.

A vigilante with horns and a tail still has those appendages, it's just disguising those features by shaping its flesh in ways to conceal them. And remember that disguise self does not allow you to change your creature type, though it can look like a different subtype that doesn't have horns. It can still gore an opponent, though that would of course count as "interacting" with it.

I don't know, but I would suspect the vigilante talent is not a polymorph in order to make it more useful. If it was a polymorph, the vigilante could not be under the effect of another beneficial polymorph.

Yep but even interacting with them is not an issue here because Malleable Flesh says it cannot be disbelieved, meaning that even if you attack with them the opponent will not be able to see them and that makes no sense, hence the question.

Fair point about Disguise Self technically allowing for different subtype, but the end result (as already noted) is that you don't gain any abilities. So even if you changed your subtype to one with a bite or claw attack, you don't actually get those. Somehow you superficial have features that look like those, but they don't actually function. And same if you have those features and turn into something that doesn't have them, you new form will make it look like you don't have those features, but they still function. It's not until Assumed Form start to function like Alter Self where that might happen.

1] Attacks are not abilities.

These are not points i'm discussing, it's written in the rules.

What i asked is: Does Malleable Flesh work the same? cause if it doesn't you can attack with invisible appendages and since the transformation is real the enemy cannot disbelief it, making the situation absurd.

1] Intrugue Oracle's Assumed Form (Sp): You can change your appearance at will, as disguise self with a caster level equal to your oracle level. At 7th level, you can choose to actually transform, which works the same way but counts as a polymorph effect instead of an illusion and doesn’t allow a Will save to disbelieve. At 11th level, the ability lasts until you dismiss it or use it again, allowing you to even keep it active while you sleep. At 15th level, when you use this ability as a polymorph effect, you can gain the size bonus to your ability scores and additional racial abilities as if using alter self.

2] Vigilante talent, Malleable Flesh (Su) (Chronicle of Legends pg. 7): Whether through mutation or alchemy, some vigilantes have flesh that is as moldable as clay and as fluid as ink. A vigilante with this talent gains the shapechanger subtype and the compression universal monster rule. In addition, the vigilante can alter his appearance as disguise self, except that the changes are physical rather than illusory. However, aspects of the vigilante’s aesthetic persist in all forms, halving the bonus on Disguise checks gained from this effect and from seamless guise. At 12th level, the vigilante can pass through narrow openings, even mere cracks, along with any item he wears or carries (to a maximum of his light load).

From what i can see the big difference is that one is a polymorph effect while the other isn't.

This implies that in Assumed form's case the polymorph rules apply while they don't for Malleable Flesh.

Th relevant polymorph rules are:

1] In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.

2] If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

3] While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function.

What do you think? Should they work the same?

To me the answer is yes, because of the absurdity that Malleable Flesh would create if it didn't work like, or wasn't treated as, a polymorph effect.

The first one coming to mind would be a character with horns or a tail that turns into a creature without those appendages whiste still being able to attack since the polymorph rule n°3 never had to be applied.

"Enlarge person" is the effect that make you one size larger

"Disguise self" is the effect that disguise your appearance

If you are enlarged, the "disguise self" disguise you as the larger one, if the enlarge effect end, then your size is reset, and the "disguise self" will not maintain the enlarge effect.

"You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between."

If not, then you are using the "disguise self" to seem more than 1 foot taller while you are actually a medium size character.

Disguise self makes 1 one foot taller of the size you were when the spell is cast, unless there is a specific rule that says the "abilitating" effect has to remain always active for the rest to not dissipatethen the large disguise is still active even without enlarge self.

The rule exists for feats for example, but i've never seen it for spells and making the rule up is not RAW.

"but if you cast enlarge you can appear as a creature of a size bigger than yours. Then you can decide to dismiss enlarge and you are still left with a large disguise"

No, if you dismiss the enlarge you can't keep the large size disguise. the same way that losing any prerequisite make you unable to use the effect that require it. lowering your str below power attack requirement mean you can not use power attack for example.
the disguise allow a larger form only when enlarged. dismissing the enlarge make the larger form 'shrink' the same as would happen to anyone who has enlarge on him and have it dismissed.

Why can't you?

I haven't seen any rule specifcying it but read about the Shillelagh Precedence stating the opposite.

But the Shillelagh Precedence doesn't fit perfectly in this case since it's related to what happens when you don't meet the spell requirements anymore but in these case he requirments are met.

The rule're talking about is for feat requirements, nothingin the Disguise self spell says the effect is not sustained if your shape changes.

Rueles as written it seems to me that you could even polymorph into a huge creature while holding a disguise self spell active that makes you look like a medium orc.
Even if the huge form would make the disguise useless it would still be active.

Greetings people, i've been looking for an infinite size combo that i could use to make a massive character, beyond colossal.

I believe i found one that works RAW and i would like your opinion.

As the title says the interaction only works RAW and it's obviously unintended for a character to increase in size indefinitely, so please let's have this in mind during the conversation.

The basic idea here stems from how Disguise self works when paired with Enlarge.

If you use Disguise self you can only appear as a creature of your size, but if you cast enlarge you can appear as a creature of a size bigger than yours. Then you can decide to dismiss enlarge and you are still left with a large disguise, this is the basic principle that i'll be using.

For the combination we need 2 levels in Vigilante with Malleable Flesh and 1 size increasing effect of our choice.

Malleable Flesh (Su) (Chronicle of Legends pg. 7): Whether through mutation or alchemy, some vigilantes have flesh that is as moldable as clay and as fluid as ink. A vigilante with this talent gains the shapechanger subtype and the compression universal monster rule. In addition, the vigilante can alter his appearance as disguise self, except that the changes are physical rather than illusory. However, aspects of the vigilante’s aesthetic persist in all forms, halving the bonus on Disguise checks gained from this effect and from seamless guise. At 12th level, the vigilante can pass through narrow openings, even mere cracks, along with any item he wears or carries (to a maximum of his light load).

The big difference here is that Malleable Flesh is not illusory, your character truly becomes one size larger and this allows the pc to repeat the process indefinitely until a satifsying size is reached since the character is not under any spell increasing it's size or polymorph effect.

Would this be a viable solution to bend the existing rules of the game into realizing my concept wihout the need of any kind of homebrew?