I agree with Claxon. Paladin should be able to target themselves when using LoH as a standard action because they count as an ally for targeting purposes.
This should make most of the need to play shenanigans with the ready action moot, and while we can argue about RAW, a lot of it will come down to individual DMs.
My personal ruling would be to allow a player to use a standard to ready a swift action even if they had already used one in the current turn, with some caveats.
- The triggering condition must relate to actions taken by other characters (and cannot be too generic, etc.)
- The readied action must be relevant to the triggering condition. That is, it must have some plausible interaction with the trigger to justify interrupting the other character's action.
- If the readied swift action is taken after being triggered, the player does not have a swift action available to use on their next turn, just as if they had used an immediate action.
Effectively, this allows a player to use a standard action to convert one of their swift action abilities into an immediate action but with the additional downside of changing their place in the initiative order. I can't think of many reasons why you might want to do this though.
Man, this thread got crazy.Very swiftly, too.
Toshy and others gave the RAW, legalistic interpretation for the original question.
RAW arguments aside, there are probably swift actions that should not be available as standard or move actions, and others that it probably won't be an issue to allow. Smite evil is the ability that probably should have just been made a free action (like rage). But here we are, reminding paladins that they are LG, and shouldn't be looking for workarounds.
I actually quite agree that we generally shouldn't allow swift actions to be done as standard actions.
However, LOH is a special case because the default usage of it is as a standard action, with a caveat of being able to do it as a swift action on one's self. Unfortunately they didn't use a slightly more permissive wording to say "may use lay on hands on self as a swift action", which I believe to be the intent.
Also because it doesn't make sense that you could touch someone else as a standard action, but can only touch yourself as a swift action.
I've been thinking about this for a while now, and the only problematic swift actions I could think of were from mythic sources. Those are the only swift actions that can be more powerful than the standard actions they are inspired by.
There are also some perks to a being a swift action that the standard doesn't get, like ignoring most AoOs. So, I'd probably create a houserule like this.
"A swift action from a non-mythic source can be performed as a standard action. This is still a standard action and does not benefit from general qualities of swift actions, such as avoiding Attacks of Opportunity"
If you are using mythic rules, you should be comparing a mythic swift action to a mythic standard action instead of a normal standard action. The problem is not the exchanging of a standard action for a swift action; it is exchanging a standard action for any mythic action. Just about every mythic action is more powerful than a standard action.
If you are using mythic rules, you should be comparing a mythic swift action to a mythic standard action instead of a normal standard action.
Can you give some examples?
I actually quite agree that we generally shouldn't allow swift actions to be done as standard actions.What swift actions would be too powerful/disruptive to be allowed as a standard? My personal opinion is that it would be a fine house rule. Giving up the standard action is a pretty big sacrifice.
The big thing I can think of, is not an individual swift action but being able to do multiple things that are normally swift actions on the same turn, allowing you to get "buffing turns" done more quickly.
The first example that I can think of comes from Inquisitors. (I may be a little rusty because it's been a while since I played PF1) Judgements are swift actions, bane is a swift action, and there are some buff spells that are swift actions. The difference in allowing a swift action to be done as a standard action can mean a difference in the ramp up time to peak damage for the Inquisitor. I think you run into similar constraints for Magus (Magi) too.
If you allow the Inquisitor to do swift actions as a standard, yes the potentially waste turn 1 buffing, and start turn 2 with their swift action buff, but they get full peak damage on turn 2 attacks.
Meanwhile, if you don't allow then they have to wait until turn 3. When combats often only last 4 to 5 rounds, not reaching peak damage until turn 3 isn't inconsequential. It was enough that I recall as an Inquisitor I would rarely use Bane unless the enemy was really tough.
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The first example that I can think of comes from Inquisitors. (I may be a little rusty because it's been a while since I played PF1) Judgements are swift actions, bane is a swift action, and there are some buff spells that are swift actions. The difference in allowing a swift action to be done as a standard action can mean a difference in the ramp up time to peak damage for the Inquisitor. I think you run into similar constraints for Magus (Magi) too.
If you allow the Inquisitor to do swift actions as a standard, yes the potentially waste turn 1 buffing, and start turn 2 with their swift action buff, but they get full peak damage on turn 2 attacks.
Inquisitor is the prime example, but I'm trying to think of 3 swifts that would be ramp up damage faster than
1 - Judge (swift)1 - Divine Favor (standard)
2 - Bane (swift)
That's why I don't think trading your standard for an extra swift is at all unbalancing. I can't think of any swift actions that would be better than a standard.
I think you have the actual routine there, I was going from memory and was thinking Divine Favor was a swift action spell for some reason (my memory has failed me).
I know there are a lot of options the Magus has that are swift actions, forcing competition instead of being able to do multiple in the same turn might be relevant.
In any event, as a GM I'd probably consider allowing conversion of swift actions into standard actions on a case by case basis, with an eye at looking at how it compresses an overall routine vs what is can be done with a standard action by the same character.
But that's why I also say I wouldn't look to generally allow it. Because as a GM I would want to review case by case, not just generally say I'm okay with it.
Meanwhile, if you don't allow then they have to wait until turn 3. When combats often only last 4 to 5 rounds, not reaching peak damage until turn 3 isn't inconsequential. It was enough that I recall as an Inquisitor I would rarely use Bane unless the enemy was really tough.
Your combats are running till turn 5?
Also more examples are the spells that are swift action offensive, an inquisitor can cast Forceful strike, a magus can quicken a spell the same turn as casting another offensive spell and turning on +Int to hit/AC, etc.
If you are using mythic rules, you should be comparing a mythic swift action to a mythic standard action instead of a normal standard action.Can you give some examples?
Casting a mythic spell could be much more powerful than a mythic swift action. Take an intensified empowered augmented mythic fireball cast by a 20th level caster with spell dilation and elemental bond. The spell would cover a 55 foot radius, dealing 25d10 *1.5 points of damage and ignore fire resistance and immunity. That is still only a 6th level spell.
The point is that anytime you are using mythic rules things are on a different power level. The standard action does not even need to be an actual mythic power, just using mythic abilities on a standard action can raise the power to obscene levels.
Man, this thread got crazy.Toshy and others gave the RAW, legalistic interpretation for the original question.
I agree with Claxon as well. However I also recognise that this is the Rules forum, which is where people come for the strict RAW answers. If you had the same question asked in the Advice or General Discussion forums I think you'd predominantly see a different answer.
The first example that I can think of comes from Inquisitors. (I may be a little rusty because it's been a while since I played PF1) Judgements are swift actions, bane is a swift action, and there are some buff spells that are swift actions. The difference in allowing a swift action to be done as a standard action can mean a difference in the ramp up time to peak damage for the Inquisitor. I think you run into similar constraints for Magus (Magi) too.
If you allow the Inquisitor to do swift actions as a standard, yes the potentially waste turn 1 buffing, and start turn 2 with their swift action buff, but they get full peak damage on turn 2 attacks.
Inquisitor is the prime example, but I'm trying to think of 3 swifts that would be ramp up damage faster than
1 - Judge (swift)
1 - Divine Favor (standard)
2 - Bane (swift)That's why I don't think trading your standard for an extra swift is at all unbalancing. I can't think of any swift actions that would be better than a standard.
Correct.
Choices would be
Round 1
Judge + move + attack OR Judge + full attack OR Judge + Divine Favor or other spell
Round 2
Add bane + full attack
vs with a swift + readied swift
Round 1
Judge + Bane + Move
Round 2
Full attack
You've miseed out a single attack, or possibly a full attack with the second version. Though you technically have a 3rd swift action that might be useful. Maybe if the enemy wasn't in range and you really expected them to provoke from you between turns.
If any class breaks things with swift actions though it would be the inquistor - but only in specific circumstances.
A magus might be able to break them too, but magus swift is usually a quickened spell on top of a full attack. Or using spell recall. Things like arcane accuracy and accurate strike are swifts you would want to use combined with a full attack - so would rarely combine them with a readied action - and certainly not with a readied swift. Though there might some obscur niche cases with other swift arcana that could break things.