Hello and Merry Christmas to y'all (hohoho) !
I guess this question has already been answered but my search in the forum didn't bear fruit, so here goes.
Darkened Forest Form allows you to change to a different shape everytime you sustain the spell. Do you get new temp HP everytime you do this ? Both sides have been argued to death in my group.
Is there an ironclad ruling somewhere or is it only interpretation and GM-dependant ?
Thanks a lot !
I'm not aware of any official rulings on this.
IMO it seems a bit strong to have temp hp that refresh that easily. But that is just my opinion on it and can just be thrown in the pile with all the other opinions on the matter.
If the new shape has temp hp as part of its package, then changing into it gives you temp hp, as awkward as the ramifications feel. The ability would have to clarify you didn't get them to rectify that.
Is it too powerful to be true?
There's Renewed Vigor (Barb 8) to compare it to and the yes, high-level Metamorphosis (Spell 9) giving you 40 hp each time (though notably it points this out explicitly).
I think the fact it's temp hp keeps it from being abused too much, you are a caster after all. And that's costly being effectively Slowed 1 at least until playing high-level w/ free Sustain feat (& perhaps a Stride via the Heightened Haste). IMO there's not enough weight to override what seems clear: you get the hp each time, much like a Wild Shape Druid could use another Focus Point to do similar.
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No official ruling that I'm aware of but put me firmly in the "way too good to be true" camp.
It feels REALLY strange that there would be this strong an incentive to actually change your form every round to get those sweet temp hps
And this would make the Animist WAY more powerful than the druid. Sure, the druid can recast Animal Form but it costs another focus point or spell slot AND 3 actions (1 to dismiss the current animal form, 2 to cast the next one)
Ooh, yeah, I'd forgotten that the Druid would need to Dismiss first. Paizo will have to step in, if only for the sake of PFS GMs. That does make for a better 3rd action than anything the Druid naturally gets, and IIRC that Sustain was one of the balancing points in another debate, so making it useful undermines that balance. Hmm.
The wording of the form spells makes it complicated not to give the bonus Temp HP with each switch, because the temp HP is technically tied to the form, not the casting of the spell. An errata to the focus spell, specifying what new abilities you get (or don’t) would be necessary if the intent is not to give temp hp again, I think. Whether or not it is too powerful is something I feel would need to be tested out at several levels. Are the limits on potential forms enough at higher levels to balance things out with a wildshaping Druid?
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For what its worth, I've played a shifting Animist at several tables now. At none of those tables did anybody even consider the possibility that the Animist would get temp HP every time they changed shape.
I agree that the words CAN be taken to mean that but the simplest quickest reading of the words (IMO) is that the temp hit points occur once when the spell is cast. You have to really read the words very carefully to even see that there is an ambiguity. Admittedly, the words were written when sustaining the spell wasn't an issue.
I can't help but think that IF Paizo intended for the Animist to get temp hit points every time they adopted a new form they'd have said that, just like they did for Metamorphosis does..
And I still think this is WAY WAY too powerful. Getting temp hit points for a single action that also lets you move (for L9+ Animists) is just way too good. Combine that with the fact that it is a single action to cast and the Animist spell just became much, much better than the Druid version
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And given that I'm rather irritated with these form spells becoming sustained I'm very much inclined just designate this as a compensation. And it also could very well be the intent.
It sounds rather like you don't actually believe that this IS the intent, you're just latching onto a loophole because you don't like the rule.
I really think that people are overstating how much of an issue sustaining the spell is
1) They're completely ignoring the significant benefit of it only having a 1 action cast time
2) They're largely ignoring the fact that the sustain can be done while moving with a L9+ Liturgist
3) They're largely ignoring the significant benefit it is to change your form each round
4) Much of the time (NOT all, admittedly) what you're missing by having to sustain is a 3rd attack at -10. This is an insanely small cost. Some of the time you really do have to move (and you're not a L9+ Animist) in which case you MAY be missing a 2nd attack and that DOES cost. But even then the ability to shift into something like a deer often means that you only have to make a single move and not a double move and essentially get the sustain for free.
Note, I absolutely agree that the sustain is a cost. I just think it not a very high cost in practice.
And, for what its worth, I say this with considerable actual play experience with both the playtest and released animist.
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It sounds rather like you don't actually believe that this IS the intent, you're just latching onto a loophole because you don't like the rule.
Whether someone likes a rule or not does not change what the rule says. Several of us are able to effectively argue RAW for rules that we then houserule in our own games because we don't like them. That's not a bad thing to be able to do.
I really think that people are overstating how much of an issue sustaining the spell is
I also feel like you are overstating your own position.
1) I agree with. The one action cast time is a benefit. But it is a benefit that most people are acknowledging.
2) Liturgist is only one of the Animist subclasses. You might consider it a must-pick, but that is not something that you should be arguing in general. In order for a proper balance consideration, you need to account for all of the main options.
3) And what significant benefit is that? Changing form does, what, exactly in a standard combat in most APs? Unless there is an enemy that is weak to a particular physical damage type or there is some varying terrain on the battlefield, what does being able to change the form chosen initially benefit?
4) There are a lot of other options available for 3rd actions than making another attack. And often it would only be a second attack that you are having to give up to use Sustain. Again, arguing that without the invalid assumption that every single Animist player is playing a level 9+ Liturgist.
If animal form was written out the same way dragon form is, than the temp HP wouldn’t be associated with the specific form. But Animal form is written out in such a way that connects the temp HP to the form. Either the spell is in error and needs errata, or the focus spell closely based on it needs specific language to clarify otherwise. Without that change, RAW is definitely that you get temp HP every time you change form. If that seems wrong, it is probably worth mentioning it in an errata thread.
If animal form was written out the same way dragon form is, than the temp HP wouldn’t be associated with the specific form.
How so?
You gain the following statistics and abilities regardless of which battle form you choose:
...
* 10 temporary Hit Points.
...
The temp HP are associated with every dragon form.
Well, I'm glad to see my question wasn't that easy, and the forum is as split as our group ^^
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2) Liturgist is only one of the Animist subclasses. You might consider it a must-pick, but that is not something that you should be arguing in general. In order for a proper balance consideration, you need to account for all of the main options.
It is a very popular subclass, especially for animists planning on using Form. But I agree that not all animists have this. My analysis covered this.
3) And what significant benefit is that? Changing form does, what, exactly in a standard combat in most APs? Unless there is an enemy that is weak to a particular physical damage type or there is some varying terrain on the battlefield, what does being able to change the form chosen initially benefit?
Even if we limit oneself to animal form then the character can use a speed of 50 to cross the battlefield, switch to a more damaging form, later climb the cliff with a swim speed.
Once elmemental forms enter the picture being able to fly can be huge. Even metal isn't that damaging though, so switching between Earth and Air/Metal is something I've done on several occasions.
4) There are a lot of other options available for 3rd actions than making another attack. And often it would only be a second attack that you are having to give up to use Sustain. Again, arguing that without the invalid assumption that every single Animist player is playing a level 9+ Liturgist.
Really? Lots of other options for the animist in animal form? Maybe intimidate, conceivably an assured athletics trip. But you're not raising a shield, you're not using a bon mot. Etc.
And my argument about often just losing a third action was assuming the character was NOT a Liturgist. In the very common case where you are already in melee range then you're doing strike, strike, sustain.
Well, obviously, getting temp HP every round is a very strong option - but that's not the question. The question is whether it is RAW or not.
PF2e is a pretty balanced game, but it still has some really powerful options, totally valid and RAW but making a few eyebrows raise - like the resentment patron, or the imperial sorcerer, or even the bard cantrips - comparing dirge of doom to the witch-equivalent evil eye is painful for the witch.
What I'm saying is, it's not because something is powerful that it's not RAW, and we shouldn't make a decision based on that - unless your GM flat out decides it so.
So I guess in the end it's GM Fiat.
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The temp HP is listed in the list of 'abilities' that each form gives.
And Darkened Forest Form does say that "When you transform into a form granted by the spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose" and "Each time you sustain this spell you can choose to change to a different shape from those available".
The question hinges on if changing to a different shape during sustain also counts as fully transforming into a form granted by the spell, and if the temp HP is part of the 'shape' of the form or not.
The First Rule is also RAW.
I think we're all pretty much in agreement that the rules are unclear here.Well, obviously, getting temp HP every round is a very strong option - but that's not the question. The question is whether it is RAW or not.
I disagree. I think several (including myself, maybe Finoan & Blue Frog in their responses) regard the rules as clear, and that the adjudication relies on whether temp hp/round (esp. on a Sustain with other benefits) is "too good to be true"/an oversight or not.
Throwing on more thought into the pot, Sustain provokes Reactive Strike. Those temp h.p. might be necessary to keep RS from shutting down an Animist's shapechanging, at least down to a skirmisher which loses a lot of its oomph.
ETA: I haven't decided either way whether it breaks the threshold, so by default I'd have to go with allowing it, at least on the fly or in PFS.
If I was forced to play by strict RAW - like in a PFS game - I think this argument:
The temp HP is listed in the list of 'abilities' that each form gives.
And Darkened Forest Form does say that "When you transform into a form granted by the spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose" and "Each time you sustain this spell you can choose to change to a different shape from those available".
is strong enough to be considered that RAW states that the temp HP are gained each time you change form when sustaining the spell. The terms involved are close enough that it is hard to argue that the rules say anything else.
But I also don't recommend playing the game by strict RAW in every instance. In more instances than just this.
If animal form was written out the same way dragon form is, than the temp HP wouldn’t be associated with the specific form.How so?
Dragon form has a list of abilities that you get when the spell is cast, regardless of the form you choose. Animal form specifies that the form itself includes the fairly generic abilities.
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Throwing on more thought into the pot, Sustain provokes Reactive Strike.
It doesn’t.