When you run your games do your players control the fights so well with trips that foes dont get crits in anyway?Ok i dont know about what happens in your games but when I GM I roll crits against players all the time. The fury line of feats will trigger enough to warrant them.
Crits are not rare occasions.Barbarians do not get extra reactions. So the Fury reaction competes against Reactive Strike.
I build to activate Reactive Strike. I certainly don't want to get crit to activate an ability, so why would I build for that?
Why wouldn't I instead build this barbarian who can trip or use combat maneuvers to prevent the enemy from even striking me to start with?
A giant barbarian can knock someone down, keep hitting them with reach, forcing the enemy to stand up just to close the reach to hit activating AOO multiple ways, rinse and repeat, giving the enemy as few chances to crit you as possible rather than waiting for an ability to activate the requires the enemy to crit me?
Why would I do that?
Mostly, yeah. That's what combat maneuvers are for to control the action cost of the opponent striking. And to set up Reactive Strike for activating.
With the slow spell and trip, you can really make a lot of fights trivial, especially as good as barbarian is at maneuvers and with reach.
Honestly, it can get quite boring to have a caster spam slow, trip a boss, then have it so the boss is either spending an action to stand up or striking -2 from the back. With a Giant barbarian it can get even worse because a giant barbarian can knock them down at range and keep them at bay so if slowed, they often can do nothing in a round but stand up and move to attack. It can get bad.
Your players might have a harder time with the trip part of that strategy on high reflex bosses. Most levels they would need what a 15 or higher on no MAP trips?
Slow is too reliable...
What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
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Well, its one point of damage, the fact that the damage you deal isn't energy damage which can help you trigger some weaknesses, and having access to elemental explosion which is a nice AoE feat which martials usually lack. The equivalent of fury instinct is, as I said, a broken feat that doesn't work with your instinct's benefits.
Interesting. I don't think of the extra damage being energy damage as a benefit, I think of it as mixed. (There are advantages to split damage types (activating weaknesses, avoiding DR) but also disadvantages due to resistances.) My assumption is that the design team sees it as an overall slight detriment, which is why they compensated for that by making the damage slightly higher.
Whether that is how it actually works out in practice is something I don't have a feel for, but it does seem clear that that was how the designers thought the balance worked.
What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
Looking at monster saves for things that would be +3 to level a 15 party there arent many creatures that would have reflex saves to really shut down a barb set up like you shared.
Ah I missed something there. For the barb at 13th level proficiency goes down 4. cant have legendary till 15.
That brings tripping lesser death back up to a 15 to succeed. But lesser death has an extreme reflex save for its level.
Looking at monster saves for things that would be +3 to level a 15 party there arent many creatures that would have reflex saves to really shut down a barb set up like you shared.
Ah I missed something there. For the barb at 13th level proficiency goes down 4. cant have legendary till 15.
That brings tripping lesser death back up to a 15 to succeed. But lesser death has an extreme reflex save for its level.
The barb is really good at maneuvers.
Sure, Fury is workable, but it doesn't offer as much bang for the buck as the other three major instincts.
I like Giant best myself, but dragon and animal can be good. Giant really plays in the barbarian theme. Main thing is disarm and the DM providing you with a big weapon which most will.
Lesser Death probably not a great example since it would be done with Misfortune.What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
Lesser Death is brutal. Though this very creature was annihilated by a Starlit Span magus at range in one round. It had already used its reaction teleport on a caster and then nuked to death in one round by amped imaginary weapon outside its misfortune aura. Very anticlimatic.
Lesser Death is brutal. Though this very creature was annihilated by a Starlit Span magus at range in one round. It had already used its reaction teleport on a caster and then nuked to death in one round by amped imaginary weapon outside its misfortune aura. Very anticlimatic.Lesser Death probably not a great example since it would be done with Misfortune.What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
Yikes
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YikesLesser Death is brutal. Though this very creature was annihilated by a Starlit Span magus at range in one round. It had already used its reaction teleport on a caster and then nuked to death in one round by amped imaginary weapon outside its misfortune aura. Very anticlimatic.Lesser Death probably not a great example since it would be done with Misfortune.What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
This is why I expect imaginary weapon to get nerfed at some point. In the hands of a magus, it's too insane, especially a starlit span magus.
Imaginary weapon is insane with the magus but its kinda bad with the psychic, mostly because you are a cloth caster and need to be in melee to use it. If they were to nerf it because of the magus it would make the psychic, a class that isn't in the best spot already, even worse.
Imaginary weapon is insane with the magus but its kinda bad with the psychic, mostly because you are a cloth caster and need to be in melee to use it. If they were to nerf it because of the magus it would make the psychic, a class that isn't in the best spot already, even worse.
True. Not being able to amp it with reach makes it not as good for any other type of casters. It's one of those Paizo "This was overlooked" things while they were going overboard to balance casters and not looking closely at interactions with other classes like the magus.
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Lesser Death is brutal. Though this very creature was annihilated by a Starlit Span magus at range in one round. It had already used its reaction teleport on a caster and then nuked to death in one round by amped imaginary weapon outside its misfortune aura. Very anticlimatic.Lesser Death probably not a great example since it would be done with Misfortune.What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
My crew went up against a trio of Lesser Deaths. My Bard was able to cast a 6th level Roaring Applause, and two of them failed, and one succeeded, so I sustained it for the rest of the fight. I also crit my lingering composition, so we won with a round left on the courageous anthem.
My crew went up against a trio of Lesser Deaths. My Bard was...Lesser Death is brutal. Though this very creature was annihilated by a Starlit Span magus at range in one round. It had already used its reaction teleport on a caster and then nuked to death in one round by amped imaginary weapon outside its misfortune aura. Very anticlimatic.Lesser Death probably not a great example since it would be done with Misfortune.What's a high Reflex save? At different points, might be different but by high level you should have a 22 strength, Legendary Athletics, +2 or 3 item bonus, and with a +2 circumstance bonus while raging for combat maneuvers.
Let's say level 15 with a +2 weapon with trip or a +2 athletics item you're looking at a 15 +8 proficiency +5 str (21 str) +2 item +2 circumstance for rage (Brutal Bully or whatever it is called) for +32 with Titan Wrestler and reach. So a reflex save of +37 to need a 15 or better if the enemy isn't debuffed with some kind of clumsy or other negative condition modifier.
You usually have a better chance to trip than hit even against a high save creature as most creature's saves aren't that high given all you can stack. I'm not going to say a high reflex save creature who resists never happens and as a DM I do like to hand out Kip Up to certain enemies to counter it, but trip is pretty good almost all the time, especially go on a Giant Barbarian who doesn't necessarily need Titan Wrestler to deal with size.
Furious bully right, i forgot about that. that extra +2 makes a big difference.
Like a lesser death is level 16 has +33 reflex. So a level 15 barb with furious bully is doing great despite high reflex, triping on a 11. But if this was fought at level 13 as a +3 solo boss encounter for the party proficiency would be 2 less putting it at a 13 which is not as bad as a 15 without Furious Bully. Furious bully is really good.
That would have messed up their reactions and slowed them? Nasty spell against Lesser Death.
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Fun. Optimized. Sub-optimal. I think we're missing the point of what options enable. It's easy to argue that Giant beats Fury, but what if I have a different goal than move, biggest possible damage strike? You can still argue that other subs have Fury beat, but here's an example of a "monster" I played my way. Fury enabled it to come online very quickly.
- Lizard folk, frilled for its demoralizing approach
- 1d8 jaw attack - No, I didn't want to reflavor snake for a larger damage type. I wanted to be a lizard folk monster and use its own attacks.
- L1 Barb feat: Acute Vision - Again, on theme of wanting him to be a primal lizard monster with Darkvision
- L1 Barb feat: Raging Intimidation - This extra feat enabled him to both get amped senses (darkvision) and demoralize as a rage action while L1. He gets free skill feats which free him up for focusing on his other pursuits.
- L2 Barb feat: Acute Scent - On theme. He has monster senses to smell hidden creatures.
- L3 picks up lizard Tail attack - Only d6 but it's bludgeon and Sweep
- L4 Barb feat: Swipe - My monster's natural, versatile attacks are improved. +1 circ bonus to make 1 roll to hit 2 adjacent targets. Jaw is for single targets. Swipe is available commonly in tight rooms with multiple foes. When team saw these ops, I got guidance for a +1 status bonus on top. That's easy to achieve fighter-level accuracy and 2 crits for 1 roll.
- L6 Barb feat: Brutal Bully/Reactive Strike - While other builds might be investing in their 6th level capstone, I got BB. With a free hand and a shield, I was frequently doing athletic maneuvers. This added consistent damage every round. You could instead take RS ahead of the other builds.
You can absolutely make a case that a human snake animal barbarian does this build better or that it's generally sub-optimal. However, Fury enabled it to have all the things I needed to be optimal in the ways I wanted: Enhanced senses (dark vision, scent), demoralize, able to take advantage of multiple natural attacks (S/P/B), shield + free hand + non-arm natural attacks, multi-target attacks, and athletics maneuver dmg.
The other subs would have sacrificed some options, delayed others, and they tend to focus on other abilities. Fury enables builds that want more L1 feats. Was this build more effective than a giant who just Sudden Charged and smacked everything? I don't know. It was the top damage dealer and controller in melee plus demoralizer, and it had a lot of options in any given round even at low levels. It was definitely more fun for me to play than another sub-class, because as a player, I need a lot of options. This delivered from L1.
Heck of a fun build and enjoyed the RP to boot.
The problem that people have with the Fury Instinct is that not only is it lacking in any unique mechanics, as you would expect, but it is also the weakest at the level of shared Barbarian mechanics, and to compensate, it gets... nothing.
Although I enjoyed RPing my fury barbarian, I demonstrated 6 levels of advantage for my playstyle that was only possible with fury and that had advantages over the other subclasses.
Unique advantages of my build:
1) Allowed demoralize without sacrificing the sole L1 Barb feat - This is a strong advantage for the lizard folk's Threatening Approach [two-actions] Effect: You Stride to be adjacent to a foe and Demoralize that foe. If you succeed, the foe is frightened 2 instead of frightened 1.
2) Allowed for darkvision and acute scent 30' by L2 - Impossible for any other subclass without sacrificing Sudden Charge or their L1 feat choice.
3) Grants STR dmg bonus to Athletics maneuvers (a focus of the build) via L6 feat almost impossible for other subs to acquire. Reactive Strike is more common when not getting the L6 Barb capstone. RS is also an early option for this build.
4) d8 dmg + versatile PSB + free hand + shield + 2-target attack (0 map, +1 circ). No AC penalty. Not possible with giant (requires weapon so either no free hand or no shield).
Unique advantage of Fury in general:
1) Only class in the game that can start with up to three L1 class feats.
Folks are making it a point to mark it as unequivocally sub-optimal, but it's not true. The extra feat enables build combos with your ancestry and archetypes that are not possible with the higher damage mod subclasses. P2 is widely acclaimed for unique combinations hitting above their Dmg mods. For players interested in building something unique, it has a distinct advantage.
The issue here is that you built that character to be as effective as possible within a box you artificially placed around them. Another Barbarian built without those...
The problem that people have with the Fury Instinct is that not only is it lacking in any unique mechanics, as you would expect, but it is also the weakest at the level of shared Barbarian mechanics, and to compensate, it gets... nothing.
Although I enjoyed RPing my fury barbarian, I demonstrated 6 levels of advantage for my playstyle that was only possible with fury and that had advantages over the other subclasses.
Unique advantages of my build:
1) Allowed demoralize without sacrificing the sole L1 Barb feat - This is a strong advantage for the lizard folk's Threatening Approach [two-actions] Effect: You Stride to be adjacent to a foe and Demoralize that foe. If you succeed, the foe is frightened 2 instead of frightened 1.
2) Allowed for darkvision and acute scent 30' by L2 - Impossible for any other subclass without sacrificing Sudden Charge or their L1 feat choice.
3) Grants STR dmg bonus to Athletics maneuvers (a focus of the build) via L6 feat almost impossible for other subs to acquire. Reactive Strike is more common when not getting the L6 Barb capstone. RS is also an early option for this build.
4) d8 dmg + versatile PSB + free hand + shield + 2-target attack (0 map, +1 circ). No AC penalty. Not possible with giant (requires weapon so either no free hand or no shield).Unique advantage of Fury in general:
1) Only class in the game that can start with up to three L1 class feats.Folks are making it a point to mark it as unequivocally sub-optimal, but it's not true. The extra feat enables build combos with your ancestry and archetypes that are not possible with the higher damage mod subclasses. P2 is widely acclaimed for unique combinations hitting above their Dmg mods. For players interested in building something unique, it has a distinct advantage.
Both barbs can trip hard if Plane picks up furious bully at level 8. The difference is giant can do it with reach and the lizard fury barb gets to use Threatening Approach then trip to make it 2 easier.
The problem that people have with the Fury Instinct is that not only is it lacking in any unique mechanics, as you would expect, but it is also the weakest at the level of shared Barbarian mechanics, and to compensate, it gets... nothing.
Although I enjoyed RPing my fury barbarian, I demonstrated 6 levels of advantage for my playstyle that was only possible with fury and that had advantages over the other subclasses.
Unique advantages of my build:
1) Allowed demoralize without sacrificing the sole L1 Barb feat - This is a strong advantage for the lizard folk's Threatening Approach [two-actions] Effect: You Stride to be adjacent to a foe and Demoralize that foe. If you succeed, the foe is frightened 2 instead of frightened 1.
2) Allowed for darkvision and acute scent 30' by L2 - Impossible for any other subclass without sacrificing Sudden Charge or their L1 feat choice.
3) Grants STR dmg bonus to Athletics maneuvers (a focus of the build) via L6 feat almost impossible for other subs to acquire. Reactive Strike is more common when not getting the L6 Barb capstone. RS is also an early option for this build.
4) d8 dmg + versatile PSB + free hand + shield + 2-target attack (0 map, +1 circ). No AC penalty. Not possible with giant (requires weapon so either no free hand or no shield).Unique advantage of Fury in general:
1) Only class in the game that can start with up to three L1 class feats.Folks are making it a point to mark it as unequivocally sub-optimal, but it's not true. The extra feat enables build combos with your ancestry and archetypes that are not possible with the higher damage mod subclasses. P2 is widely acclaimed for unique combinations hitting above their Dmg mods. For players interested in building something unique, it has a distinct advantage.
I view every build as though I'm playing to 20 because I always expect to reach level 12 plus.
If you're build doesn't measure up at high level, I don't want anything to do with it.
If this fury build is far behind when I hit level 16 with a Giant barbarian, then I would be very unhappy with the build.
I do understand not everyone expects to hit that level every campaign, so their mileage may vary. If playing to lower level, then other instincts may seem more balanced than they will be at near max level.
I plan every character from 1 to 20 when I make it. If I'm looking at the high level feats and the class build is looking weak, I won't make it. I only want to play classes and builds that I'll feel good about from 1 to 20 even if there are a few clunky levels here and there.