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Can a Solar (22 HD, CR 23) have 20 levels of Paladin, or any other class for that matter?
A Solar with 20 levels of Paladin would have 42 HD, and be a CR 33 "monster."
I don't think have seen any monsters in any of the Bestiaries with more than 36 HD (Cthulhu) nor have I seen any monsters higher than CR 30 (except in 3PP stuff).
If such Solars are possible, why haven't we seen 20th level Paladins who've died and gotten promoted quickly to being a Solar (the Angel Knight from the Hell's Vengeance AP died when she was a Paladin and was quickly promoted to a Solar who kept her 5 Paladin levels; 27 HD, CR 25) or some other really powerful good outsider who then decided to take out all the Demon Lords, Infernal Dukes, etc. one by one?
There's gotta be a class level limit of some sort for monsters, doesn't there?
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The limit is "how big do you want the numbers in your campaign to be?" The methodologies for giving monsters class levels are all there in the books. (If a bit flawed, and requiring a lot of artistry and not just strict formulas.) You can give a monster 20 levels each in three different classes if you want to! But there's not a big demand for CR30+ creatures so Paizo didn't publish them. It's up to the GM.
(the Angel Knight from the Hell's Vengeance AP died when she was a Paladin and was quickly promoted to a Solar who kept her 5 Paladin levels; 27 HD, CR 25) or some other really powerful good outsider who then decided to take out all the Demon Lords, Infernal Dukes, etc. one by one?
The very fact this has not happened indicates that it won't.
I don't think that there is one Solar in one adventure path that has retained their Paladin levels as a Solar means that every outsider that was once a deceased human does.
There are rules for monster advancement here https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/monster-advancement/.
They don't give a maximum number, CR or levels or HD which you can advance a monster to. It is left to the discretion of each DM running a campaign.
I think a sensible use of that discretion is that monsters power tops out around that of Cthulu and at less than that of dieties.
that would not be a CR 33 monster but a cr 43 monster.
the rules for adding classes to monster say that if the class fit the monster 'style' it add it's full level to the cr, if not it add half. so an arcane spell casting, half bab, monster who gain fighter levels get half the class level to it's cr, while if it gained wizard class levels it would gain the full levels to it's cr.
a Solar a a full hd\bab with divine spells (and detect evil etc) is pretty much a 'monster' paladin so adding more paladin levels to it should add the full paladin levels to the cr.
the rules for adding classes to monster say that if the class fit the monster 'style' it add it's full level to the cr, if not it add half.
True enough.
But that is a simple rule for determining a monster's CR. But CR is supposed to indicate how dangerous it is and that is a very complicated question.
(the Angel Knight from the Hell's Vengeance AP died when she was a Paladin and was quickly promoted to a Solar who kept her 5 Paladin levels; 27 HD, CR 25) or some other really powerful good outsider who then decided to take out all the Demon Lords, Infernal Dukes, etc. one by one?The very fact this has not happened indicates that it won't.
What do you mean hasn't happened? It is literally ripped from an AP, even as an optional encounter.
@ AwesomenessDog
What I meant had not happened was not a deceased Paladin becoming a Solar with 5 Paladin Levels as in Hell's Vengeance.
What I did mean was some powerful monster like a Solar having 20 levels of Paladin and going and murdering all the Infernal Dukes and so on as per Arkat's initial post. That certainly hasn't happened.
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that would not be a CR 33 monster but a cr 43 monster.
Incorrect. If that were so, the Angel Knight's Solar form would have been given a CR of 28. It wasn't. It is listed as a 25 in its stat block.
The Angel Knight can be found on pages 72-73 in Hell Comes to Westcrown (AP book #108).
the rules for adding classes to monster say that if the class fit the monster 'style' it add it's full level to the cr, if not it add half. so an arcane spell casting, half bab, monster who gain fighter levels get half the class level to it's cr, while if it gained wizard class levels it would gain the full levels to it's cr.
a Solar a a full hd\bab with divine spells (and detect evil etc) is pretty much a 'monster' paladin so adding more paladin levels to it should add the full paladin levels to the cr.
I would invite you to take a look at "Step 3: Determining CR" and "Table 2-4: Monsters with Class Levels" on page 297 of Bestiary 1.
RAW, both Monk and Paladin (marked with a "-" in Table 2-4), count HALF of their levels towards the final CR rating no matter what the role the "monster" is supposed to fill.
Table 2–4 gives general guidelines regarding which
core classes add directly to a monster’s abilities based
on its role. Classes that are marked “key” generally add
1 to a creature’s CR for each level added. Classes marked
with a “—” increase a creature’s CR by 1 for every 2 class
levels added until the number of levels added are equal
to (or exceed) the creature’s original CR, at which point
they are treated as “key” levels (adding 1 to the creature’s
CR for each level added).
That is why the Angel Knight is a CR 25 instead of a CR 28.
The Solar's role isn't necessarily Combat. It can cast 9th level Cleric spells so it can be a primary caster (Healer for instance), OR it can be a combatant, OR it can also fill the Skilled role. Solars are, after all, some of the greatest trackers among the Celestials. The Paladin, likewise, can be a caster (albeit a lesser one), OR a combatant, or one of the more skilled members of the party as they are often its "face," capable of doing the Bluffing, Diplomacy, Intimidation, and doing the Sense Motive checks to go along the the verbal skill checks.
A Solar with 20 Paladin levels, by RAW, is a CR 33.
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Ever had a swarm with levels in rouge or monk?
You know the one you can only DMG with AoE spells which are mostly Ref Saves? And giving them Evasion, so that they are nearly invulnerable.
Like a Bat swarm (CR 2) with 2 levels in rouge.
+3 to Ref from the class +2 from Dex (+4 Dex for class adjustment) and evasion.
Thats a "CR 3" creature with a +12 Ref, evasion and swarm abilites.
And I bet a lot, that most level 2/3 partys would die against this monster.
Thanks. I just envisioned what power a vampire with the ability to turn into a bat swarm and two levels as a rogue would have.
Balancing an encounter or a monster is always complicated. A power acceptable for an NPC monster becomes terrifying in the hands of a player who will use it not in a single encounter but in his whole career. Similarly, giving player-like powers to monsters can be extremely unbalancing.
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So, I got completely and utterly ninja'd by Ju-mo. I was about to make exactly the same points with the exact same examples. I deleted that post since there's no point in doubling up and made this one instead. To quote myself from earlier in the thread:
The methodologies for giving monsters class levels are all there in the books. (If a bit flawed, and requiring a lot of artistry and not just strict formulas.)
CR was always intended to provide rough guidelines for GMs trying to come up with an appropriate challenge for their players. It wasn't a completely robust set of rules and is completely prone to exploitation if so inclined. (The most well-known example may be the "Young Giant." If you apply those two templates you net a creature with no CR change, +1 natural armor, and +1 Dex. Why not do it if you are min-maxing?)
Class levels are particularly problematic, and the designers knew it. The Bestiary says "Of all the methods of advancing a monster, adding class levels requires the most adjudication and careful comparison." The section on determining CR of a monster with class levels is only two paragraphs long but includes the word "generally" multiple times. Guidelines and suggestions, not rules.
I remember being annoyed by one encounter involving a pech with kineticist levels. The base pech has 6HD but is only CR3. That was an appropriate CR for just the base monster. But it happened to be a really good race with really good stats and feats for the melee terrakineticist we were facing. Lots of HD are always good for kineticists. And it got the stat adjustments. And the author decided that since the monster's role was "combat" and the kineticist was not listed as "key" for the combat role, she only had to add 1/2 a CR for the first few levels. NOTE: Paizo never listed key roles for any classes after the Core Rulebook. So of course the kineticist wasn't listed as a combat role. Or anything else.
I got that confirmed by the author in a messageboard post. The net result was a creature that probably should have been at least CR11 (there were some other things going on in the scenario that made the encounter even more challenging) only coming out to CR9 by the author's math. And, this is the important part, she wasn't wrong. I don't think she was right, but there's no rule anyone could point to and say "Incorrect!"
There is a lot of sense in Ju-Mo's post and those that follow.
Adding class levels to a monster has some similarities to creating gestalt characters. 2 levels of [anti]Paladin or Monk can have disproportionate benefits.
To extend Ju-Mo's example of a Balor with 2 levels of Antipaladin, add 2 levels of Monk as well. It's already high AC and saves have now been boosted by an awful lot.
A party who could defeat a normal Balor with difficulty will probably find that now they can scarcely do anything to it. This with a CR boost of 4, some would say 2. Worse, when you encounter a Balor it is very nearly always a Balor and by the time any of the players realise this is something more they may all be dead. The idea might be to create a unique challenge but it is more likely to be a formulae for a TPK.
Adding class levels to monsters, especially top end powerful ones like a Balor or Solar, is to be done with care and thought. Well, it is probably for experienced GMs who are prepared to spend some time and energy on the project.
Ever had a swarm with levels in rouge or monk?
You know the one you can only DMG with AoE spells which are mostly Ref Saves? And giving them Evasion, so that they are nearly invulnerable.
Like a Bat swarm (CR 2) with 2 levels in rouge.
+3 to Ref from the class +2 from Dex (+4 Dex for class adjustment) and evasion.
Thats a "CR 3" creature with a +12 Ref, evasion and swarm abilites.
And I bet a lot, that most level 2/3 partys would die against this monster.Thanks. I just envisioned what power a vampire with the ability to turn into a bat swarm and two levels as a rogue would have.
..
that's already an option with this feat