Sorry if this not the sort of question you will be awnsering but I've always been baffled by this mechanic.
The Incorporeal trait says "An incorporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against physical creatures or objects—only against incorporeal ones—unless those objects have the ghost touch property rune. Likewise, a corporeal creature can’t attempt Strength-based checks against incorporeal creatures or objects."
And attack rolls say "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."
Me and my group have assumed that this made Ghosts and the like immune to strikes using Strenght and one requires Finesse or Ghost Touch to hit them in a sort of "Martial Golem" , This however is not the concensus online as people use this only for Manuevers such as Grapple and Trip.
When I heard that Golem would be changed I tought that so would the Incorporeal trait but it remained the same.
Could you provide us with insight on how this is intended to work?
While it's my policy not to wade in on ambiguous rules, especially those that cause significant debates, in this case I feel that there's a genuine community consensus that the wording is a bit off and it would violate the "too good / too bad to be true" rule by being too bad to be true if you can't use Strength-based Strikes so I recommend allowing them. This is not an official FAQ or errata or anything, but I feel so strongly that not allowing Strength-based Strikes will cause huge problems for you and whatever few groups are denying Strength Strikes that it's worth saying something in this one case. It certainly does literally say what you quoted though, so an erratum or change in the remaster wouldn't have been remiss.
Thanks you so much for the response!
I'm very grateful that the game is easily readable and that ambiguities like this are very rare.
You're welcome!
I think of incorporeal creatures as supernaturally antithetical to Strength itself, which is why Strength-based Strikes don't work for or against them but Dexterity-based Strikes do. Vampires have a similar thing going on, in that they're so averse to light that they don't have reflections.
Additionally, incorporeal creatures tend to have abysmal HP. The Building Creatures rules recommend giving incorporeal creatures terrible HP (or low HP at higher levels), and the ghost adjustment even says not to alter the monster's HP even though its level is increasing by 2. So taking away their immunity to Strength-based Strikes might cause them to be destroyed too quickly.
Having been the one to write the Building Creatures rules guidelines where I recommended to give them terrible to low HP, I can tell you that we assigned them the lowered HP to deal with the effects of their having resistance all (except force/spirit/maybe vitality, double vs nonmagical).
That said, if incorporeal creatures are easy for your group even with making them immune to Strength Strikes, I guess do what works for you? Or maybe have a dream sequence that's not for keeps where your level 5 party with a Strength character or two fights an animate dream and see if they get a wipe?
I would almost rather it keeps its current wording. Not because that is how the game should be run, but because it is such a good example of when and how to invoke the First Rule and the Ambiguous Rules rule.
I thought of the anti Strength thing because becoming a ghost tanks your Strength and forces you to rely on finesse attacks. I thought that was the deal for all incorporeal creatures.
But it turns out that there are incorporeal creatures like the Sunscale Serpent that have decent Strength and are definitely supposed to Strengh-Strike while incorporeal.
And Ghost Archetype PC characters.
This makes sense, though wouldn't this also mean it'd be simpler to change "Strength-based checks" to "Strength-based ability checks" in the incorporeal trait? That way, you'd get to make Strength-based Strikes and other attacks just fine, but still wouldn't be able to grapple that ghost.
My bad, I indeed meant skill checks, as ability checks are not a thing in Pathfinder. It does nonetheless sound like the better way to go, as it means Strikes and attacks no longer get excluded. Of course, it could be that the developers intend for Strength-based Strikes to not work against ghosts, but that sounds a little harsh.
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My bad, I indeed meant skill checks, as ability checks are not a thing in Pathfinder. It does nonetheless sound like the better way to go, as it means Strikes and attacks no longer get excluded. Of course, it could be that the developers intend for Strength-based Strikes to not work against ghosts, but that sounds a little harsh.
Yeah. It's just weird that a ghost can grab a ghost touch greatsword and whack you with it (not very well due to their low STR, but they can), but you can't hit them back with the same exact same weapon.
I've always ignored this little rules hiccup and will continue to do so.