I want to make a toxicologist but I am not sure about a few things about creating poisons in the new rules.
From what I understand :
-Poisons made with advanced alchemy work perfectly fine but can't have additives.
-Poisons made from create consumable (quick alchemy) stop being potent at the end of turn but the poison will work normally for the full 6 rounds if a creature is affected before then.
-Quick vial poison is the same (except it doesn't have a duration and directly deals damages).
The thing that I am not sure about is what happens with poisonned weapons :
Does a weapon being poisoned count as an effect of the poison and thus stay poisoned for 10 minutes with quick alchemy or does the weapon stops being poisoned at the end of turn.
The quick vial version specifically says that the substance becomes inert at the end of turn. It seems to target specifically the poisoned weapon so for this one does the poison last until the end of turn on the weapon ?
I ask those questions because the poisons seem extremely short lived for what you want to do with them. You have quick bomber to create and throw a bomb but if you want to use a poison it seem that you have to create it, put it on your weapon and strike all on the same turn meaning you have no actions left to close the gap (and on ranged weapons it seem just impossible to use, because you have to poison the ammo with both hand then draw the weapon).
If the poisonned ammo or weapon wtay poisoned for 10 minutes that seem a bit more usable but I am not sure if this is the correct read (quick vial seem to directly point the contrary as I understand it)
Zergor wrote: Does a weapon being poisoned count as an effect of the poison and thus stay poisoned for 10 minutes with quick alchemy or does the weapon stops being poisoned at the end of turn. I don't think the rules actually specify clearly if applying the poison to the weapon counts as 'using' the poison or not.
Zergor wrote: I ask those questions because the poisons seem extremely short lived for what you want to do with them. That is exactly how Quick Alchemy is described:
Quick Alchemy wrote: You can either use up a versatile vial to make another alchemical consumable at a moment's notice or create an especially short-lived versatile vial. Zergor wrote: You have quick bomber to create and throw a bomb but if you want to use a poison it seem that you have to create it, put it on your weapon and strike all on the same turn meaning you have no actions left to close the gap (and on ranged weapons it seem just impossible to use, because you have to poison the ammo with both hand then draw the weapon). I don't think the action economy is that bad.
Quick Bomber is not needed for Quick Alchemy bombs, and in fact is probably not usable for them. Quick Alchemy is one action and creates the bomb in your hand. So one action to create a bomb (either Create Consumable or Versatile Vial version) and one action to Strike with it. You still have one action left.
Any non-Toxicologist would take all three actions to poison and then Strike with a weapon and wouldn't have an action left to create the poison with in the first place. So create consumable or draw advanced alchemy poison on the previous round only. Toxicologist can poison a weapon with 1 action instead of 2, so they can use one action to Quick Alchemy a poison, one action to poison their weapon, and one action to Strike with it. And that can be done for both melee and ranged weapons.
Poisoning a weapon wouldn't work well if using a 2 hand weapon (such as a standard crossbow or longspear). You need a free hand to use Quick Alchemy or to hold the poison and would have to use Release and Regrip actions. It should work fine with a 1 hand (like a hand crossbow or dagger) or 1+ hand weapon (like a bow, if you get proficiency with it).
Finoan wrote: I don't think the action economy is that bad.
Quick Bomber is not needed for Quick Alchemy bombs, and in fact is probably not usable for them. Quick Alchemy is one action and creates the bomb in your hand. So one action to create a bomb (either Create Consumable or Versatile Vial version) and one action to Strike with it. You still have one action left.
Any non-Toxicologist would take all three actions to poison and then Strike with a weapon and wouldn't have an action left to create the poison with in the first place. So create consumable or draw advanced alchemy poison on the previous round only. Toxicologist can poison a weapon with 1 action instead of 2, so they can use one action to Quick Alchemy a poison, one action to poison their weapon, and one action to Strike with it. And that can be done for both melee and ranged weapons.
Poisoning a weapon wouldn't work well if using a 2 hand weapon (such as a standard crossbow or longspear)....
I get that non toxicologists basically can't use poison and that the toxicologist can use bombs... but if I play toxicologist it is to play with poisons and not bombs and it seems that even with all the poison feats I can take bombs are more reliable.
The main difference between bombs and poison is that you throw a bomb so even if you use 2 actions to create it and throw it you can still hit any enemy at reasonable range and on top of that the fact that you only used 2 actions mean you can move. If you have double brew you can create 2 bombs and throw them with your 3 actions at a reasonable distance.
For poison, you need 3 separate actions if you have a melee weapon : create poison, coat weapon, strike. Meaning that you don't get an extra action to close the distance and thus are unable to poison any enemy that moves away on their last action (and it may be just my GM but they tend to have their monsters do that to avoid being permanently flanked). On a ranged weapon it's even worse because you poison the ammunition. That mean that you need 4 actions : create poison, coat ammunition, draw weapon, strike (and you have to start with an ammunition in hand and a free hand which mean you used an action in the previous turn to switch the weapon for an ammunition).
THe fact that you need 3 actions is ok, but if you have to do them in the same turn, you require a great amount of setup (your allies making sure the ennemy stay in melee range with you... which may be a problem as you are a d8 hp class) and I am not sure that setup can be consistantly done.
Something I want to add that I found while looking at all the poison rules is that injury poisons seem strangely restricted in general. Their use is super clunky without specifically the rogue feat to draw the poison and apply it in a single action.
Compare them to inhaled poisons (which have as far as I can tell the same DC and same level of effects) :
Inhaled poisons cost one single action to use to create a 4 tile poison cloud at melee range for one minute. This mean that compared to injury poisons you spend one less action just to use it and your victim will immediately roll without the need for you to manage to hit it with a strike. You can hit a creature two tiles away and even better you can hit multiple creatures that are close together. The cloud stays a menace for a full minute (which work for and against you depending on situation, granted).
Yes you can use an injury poison before combat but I don't know why that would warrant to make them almost impossible to use during combat.
Toxicologists get a small buff compared to that baseline but not at the same level that rogues get and as I said on the previous post, the 1 round hard limit on use on quick vial poisons makes it clunky to use (the rogue poison is weaker but it doesn't go away at the end of the round).
Quick Bomber does work with Quick Alchemy bombs after the Remaster, and is why every single Alchemist is very incentivized to take that feat.
It means that while all non-bomb items made via QA are 2A at minimum, all bomb items will be 1A.
Meaning that Bombs are the best/easiest way to use your VVs in combat now.
And post L9, you can combine that Quick Alch Bomber with Double Brew. Which means that your 1A Quick Alch + throw bomb now ends with a second VV item in your other hand for a pseudo 1A use of any consumable.
For Tox, it's very easy to see that a Double Quick Alch Bomber + pop an inhaled poison on that 2nd A as a good turn.
Injury poisons are very hard to use in combat, yes.
They also need a hit to take effect, and only ever can affect 1 foe.
Inhaled are honestly way better imo, because they need no hit, can affect >1 foes, can be popped in just 1A, and have an entire 2ndary function of area denial.
Note that you have a 5ft reach, and to not poison yourself on use.
If you happen to be a spellcaster, you can also try to get the Deep Breath cantrip, and become immune to your own inhaled poisons. The oxygen ooze item can do the same for an hr, but costs alchemy.
Trip.H wrote: Quick Bomber does work with Quick Alchemy bombs after the Remaster, and is why every single Alchemist is very incentivized to take that feat. Yeah bombs seem great in general and I will probably use a few even with a toxicologist to apply a few persistant damages. But my main question is how to make the main features of the toxicologist work. Pernicious poisons seem to be a great feat until you see the additive tags and the hoops you have to ge through to use a poison with quick alchemy as described in my first post. As said before my impression is that the action economy is impossibly stiff due to the "stops working at the end of turn" clause which is harsher than many other class power that often have at least "until the end of your next turn" so you can have a setup turn and a payoff turn.
Trip.H wrote: If you happen to be a spellcaster, you can also try to get the Deep Breath cantrip, and become immune to your own inhaled poisons. The oxygen ooze item can do the same for an hr, but costs alchemy. If I read it correctly, holding your breath and similar effects gives a +2 to saves and not a full immunity.
For advanced alchemy poisons, there's a couple ways to help the action economy. Simplest is to have a familiar with manual dexterity and independent to be able to hand things to you. Best to start them off holding something. The other is the coating rune at 9th level.
There's not anything you can do about quick alchemy poisons. Build for range to have the actions to pull it off.
So many debatable things being mentioned.
Quote: holding your breath and similar effects gives a +2 to saves and not a full immunity. For one action, you can hold your breath with no spellcasting needed in order to get a +2 circumstance bonus against Inhaled things.
It is not as clear if a spell - even a cantrip - should have a better benefit than that.
Similarly, Avert Gaze is a standard action available to anyone. If someone instead casts Blindness on themselves, shouldn't they become fully immune to any visual effects?
Quote: Simplest is to have a familiar with manual dexterity and independent to be able to hand things to you. That is also up for debate. Valet would certainly work.
But while Manual Dexterity gives them the ability to use manipulate actions, it doesn't give them a carrying capacity. Bulk Limits are only defined for characters, and also depends on strength bonus.
While it is common to rule that a familiar with manual dexterity can hold and carry items, that isn't actually a rule.
I don't have a problem with advanced alchemy poisons. As you said the coating rune take care of them : One action tu use them and one to strike, and they arn't lost on a miss, and you can choose between all stored poisons, up to 10.
Advanced alchemy poisons are great. My problem are quick alchemy poisons.
Those seem almost impossible to use but there are feats that only work with them, and you have a special use for your vials with them that also seem almost impossible to use.
That's the part I find strange.
Finoan wrote: There is no reason to think that the existence of the 1A --> +2 circ rule within the inhaled trait is the only thing that interacts with inhaled poisons.
The suffocation rules indicate that PCs can go completely airless for some time. If a GM wants to put a >1 action cost to a PC/creature that willing initiates suffocation, that could work too.
Overall, it would be honestly shitty to play at a table where a PC using deep breath could be properly airless for underwater, getting swallowed, poison spores, etc, but then have the GM deny the spell's function only in the case of inhaled poisons due to that extra +2 circ mechanic.
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For the Avert Gaze thing,
You don't need to cast Blindness, It's only logical for a GM to allow any eye-using PC to willing close their own eyes and become blind.
Like, guys, come on. This is still a ttrpg and not a video game.
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And to "well maybe they actually can't" about letting familiars carry items is just absurd.
Manual Dexterity literally grants the 2 hands that are being talked about.
As for bulk, the rules have a very clear chart for how to convert bulk for different creatures sizes, no mention of PC/NPC. https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2164
A familiar can hold 1 L item in each hand to be affected as if carrying 2L --> 2 bulk.
It is correct to say that there is no prescribed bulk limit nor STR value for a familiar, yet it would be rather absurd for a GM to rule that such a bulk limit would be less than 2.
Moreover, even in that absurd case, you also have the encumbered state.
Familiars are tiny creatures. And tiny creatures carry more than 2L bulk of items all the damn time.
Zergor, your discomfort with the action economy of injury poisons is a fine complaint. But I consider it secondary to the fact that alchs are just not as good at hitting things with a weapon without getting high on their own supply - i.e., needing to use a mutagen to just keep up with a dedicated martial's to-hit bonus. It's why I haven't considered playing a tox (or any alch), even with the remastered alch getting a lot of improvements
I'm with Finoan on Quick Alchemy: Create Consumable poisons remaining potent on the weapon for the 10 mins after application until expended normally; unlike how tox field vials work. That will allow you to use them with additives in the 1 turn to set up, later turn to Strike routine
>Inhaled poisons cost one single action to use
Can you tell me where you got this? If it's the tox field benefit...
Field Benefit wrote: You can apply an injury poison you’re holding to a weapon or piece of ammunition you’re wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity. I'll be pleased if I missed something, but aside from that detail I'm still in favor of inhaled poisons for their ease-of-use (no to-hit roll) and area denial. I'd probably make a few in the morning with AA and hand them out along with a bunch of bombs to the real martials so I don't have to get close to the front line, since your DC and other field benefits (acid instead of poison on select creatures) would still apply as they do for all your infused poisons. And don't forget blight bombs exist
Baarogue wrote: Zergor, your discomfort with the action economy of injury poisons is a fine complaint. But I consider it secondary to the fact that alchs are just not as good at hitting things with a weapon without getting high on their own supply - i.e., needing to use a mutagen to just keep up with a dedicated martial's to-hit bonus. It's why I haven't considered playing a tox (or any alch), even with the remastered alch getting a lot of improvements
I'm with Finoan on Quick Alchemy: Create Consumable poisons remaining potent on the weapon for the 10 mins after application until expended normally; unlike how tox field vials work. That will allow you to use them with additives in the 1 turn to set up, later turn to Strike routine
>Inhaled poisons cost one single action to use
Can you tell me where you got this? If it's the tox field benefit...
Field Benefit wrote: You can apply an injury poison you’re holding to a weapon or piece of ammunition you’re wielding as a single action, rather than as a 2-action activity. I'll be pleased if I missed something, but aside from that detail I'm still in favor of inhaled poisons for their ease-of-use (no to-hit roll) and area denial. I'd probably make a few in the morning with AA and hand them out along with a bunch of bombs to the real martials so I don't have to get close to the front line, since your DC and other field benefits (acid instead of poison on select creatures) would still apply as they do for all your infused poisons. And don't forget blight bombs exist
Yup I agree alchemists have a hard time hitting things but I don't feel it's that horrible (you get your masteries 2 levels after everyone which mean 4 levels where you are behind on a total of 20. Bad, but manageable).
But yeah it's a bit worse if you HAVE to hit to not lose the poison. It seem that multiple people, you included think the poison should last 10 minutes and if that's the case (I'll check with my GM if they agree to the same ruling), that is manageable, allowing a few failed strikes as long as you don't crit fail (and even then there is a feat to mitigate that).
So with the 10 minutes the action economy may not be broken anymore. 2 actions to poison a weapon in the same turn then as many turns as you want to land a hit seem manageable.
Quick vial injury poison seem still hard to use because it clearly has a clause that says the poison disappear in the current round but I can still throw the vial and that will be probably 90% of how I will use it. The injury poison may be useful in the rare cases I am ok trying to do massive damages as a 3 action activity (which may be slightly better than attacking multiple times with my weapon due to the low attack making MAP a real problem).
Baarogue wrote: But I consider it secondary to the fact that alchs are just not as good at hitting things with a weapon without getting high on their own supply - i.e., needing to use a mutagen to just keep up with a dedicated martial's to-hit bonus. It goes a bit further than "keeping up".
An Alchemist's Key Ability Score is Intelligence. So, the best point of comparison is a similar Martial, like a Thaumaturge.
Without one of the four Accuracy enhancing Mutagens (Bestial, Fury Cocktails, Quicksilver, War Blood) an Alchemist will be behind a Thaumaturge for four levels: 5, 6, 13 & 14. The deficit is a -2. A Bomb using Alchemist would additionally be -1 behind at 2, 10 & 16, as Bombs get their Accuracy boost one level behind Runes.
With such a Mutagen, the Alchemist still remains behind at some of those levels... but the deficit is cut in half to -1. Compared to a Thaumaturge, the Mutagen using Alchemist has the following Accuracies:
-1: 5, 6, 13 & 14
0: 2, 10 & 16
+1: 1, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 15, 17, 18, 19 & 20.
So, behind for four levels, even for three, and ahead for thirteen.
Compared to a Rogue, which has KAS Dex:
-2: 13 & 14
-1: 2, 5, 6 & 10
0: 1, 3, 4, 11, 12, 16 & 20
+1: 7, 8, 9, 15, 17, 18 & 19
So, behind for six, even for seven and ahead for seven.
So you don't have to use a Mutagen. But I highly recommend it. I have an 11th Level Bomber and a 10th level Mutagenist in PFS. I also played a Bomber for ten levels through Outlaws of Alkenstar. Both the Bombers use (or used) Quicksilver all the time. The Mutagenist uses Bestial. It's been great.
Baarogue wrote: >Inhaled poisons cost one single action to use
Can you tell me where you got this? If it's the tox field benefit...
Sorry, most inhaled poisons are 1A Activations at baseline, no interaction with the Tox field. Works great as the 2nd item in a Double Quick Bomb Brew combo. (though most Tox like to use a weapon, which means you can't 2H as needed for Double Brew)
For prep items, some Draw avoidance will likely be required, though a dedicated poisoner could easily find holding one as they enter battle to be a good use of a hand.
There are a few inhaled poisons that are 2H, and thus far one that's both 2H and 2A.
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This also reminded me about the line in Breathtaking Vapor:
"Creatures that don't need to breathe can still take the poison's damage but are immune to its other effects."
IMO that's pretty strong support that under normal circumstances, creatures that don't need to breathe (such as via Deep Breath) are outright immune to inhaled poisons by default.
ottdmk wrote: I really don't think comparisons like this are all that helpful.
Many other classes have ways to make their attacks more accurate, such as Rogue adding extra avenues for Off Guard.
All PCs can drink mutagens, and the Alch Archetype has never been better.
And mutagens have very serious drawbacks.
Quicksilver is "great" due to both the attack bonus and spd bonus being useful, but it has 2 different and severe drawbacks. You loose a lot of HP from it, and lowering your Fort is *very* dangerous. I needed to see the ally next to me get Swallowed Whole to remember that every monster with grabby / athletic stuff all target PC Fort. The foe design really does make Fortitude the most important player save, even in a system with "save or die" Will spells.
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And, of course, "an Alchemist with their mutagen" is still like saying "a Wizard with max R Runic Weapon."
Expending a limited class resource to buff their attack +1 over the norm does NOT make the class chassis better. Everyone saying that the Alch has worse attacks is 100% correct.
> Sorry, most inhaled poisons are 1A Activations at baseline
No, that's cool. It appears the one I glanced at was the only one that's two actions and in a moment of weakness I assumed they all were lol
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