Why Hide?

[Trip.H]

SuperParkourio wrote:

Specific overiding general would be if the monster had a passive ability that allowed it to know if it was undetected, overriding the Sneak action's secret trait. Aquatic Ambush isn't actually giving the monster the ability to know its state of detection, it's just that the writer forgot that the monster isn't supposed to know that.

To advocate for the other side here, systems with rules like this *do* rely on abilities to perform specific overrides that "break the rules" only via implication. It's rather common to lack callout phrases that clarify the norm before instructing it to be broken.

I think a fitting example is the familiar ability Item Delivery.

From a certain PoV, that creates a similar contradiction as Aquatic Ambush.

The companion item rules state that familiars cannot Activate items.

The Item Delivery familiar ability involves Activating the item.

Because Item Delivery lacks an explicit callout like ~"despite the normal rules..." you are "stuck" with the same situation of interpretation.

The reader must presume the intent and awareness of the author.

Either the author "knew about the rule and this was intended as a specific override of that rule"

or

the author "didn't know about that rule and this ability isn't supposed to work as written." (and the GM should then adjust the ability's function to comply with the rules).

.

To be clear, while one may personally find their stance to be the obvious one, there *is* genuine ambiguity on the Aquatic Ambush question. I've never GMed, so "what's normal" on the GM side of the table is alien to me, so I myself am very much sitting on the fence while soapboxing.

[Baarogue]

The "specific" here is an action written to be "unusable" if you read the rules that normally govern the relevant situation like gospel. The only metagaming problem that could arise with Aquatic Ambush would be if you had the monster bypass one valid target to attack another because the further one had a much lower AC. THAT would be unfair, not just using a monster ability as written

And I already answered the Sense the Unseen "issue." Follow the precedent for using abilities with secret rolls as triggers in the sidebar I quoted there

These aren't the BIG problem abilities here guys. This takes minimal effort to discern the intent and conclude "gawrsh I guess this is a special case, but I can still deal with it as is since it technically works." It's not like the boss I read in a 2e PFS adventure who is supposed to open by casting its silence spell at range on the closest enemy caster, a touch spell that requires a willing target

[OrochiFuror]

In what situation is an ambush predator noticed and in range to do it's ambush attack yet its prey is just sitting there not reacting? Are they stupid? Are they baiting an attack out? Does the predator not notice that it's been noticed?

Is this a real situation or by the very nature of how you got to this point you should know how it works out.

[Deriven Firelion]

OrochiFuror wrote:

In what situation is an ambush predator noticed and in range to do it's ambush attack yet its prey is just sitting there not reacting? Are they stupid? Are they baiting an attack out? Does the predator not notice that it's been noticed?

Is this a real situation or by the very nature of how you got to this point you should know how it works out.

All up to the GM to decide.

Stealth rules across editions have always been left deliberately open ended because the situational variation is open ended.

[SuperParkourio]

So what should happen if the monster has Aquatic Ambush and doesn't use it? If it fails a Sneak, should it be allowed to just Sneak again because it knows it's undetected?

Or does the monster only realize it's undetected when it tries to use Aquatic Ambush but realizes it can't use that, leaving the action unspent?

[SuperParkourio]

Additionally, it's strange to allow a requirement to assign power to something. By its nature, the requirement is a restriction on when the action can be used. Removing the requirement should cause nothing more than an increase in situations where it can be used. But by applying specific vs general as suggested here, it insinuates that removing the requirement would actually deprive the monster of the power to know when it is undetected. Isn't that a little strange?

[Baarogue]

SuperParkourio wrote:

So what should happen if the monster has Aquatic Ambush and doesn't use it? If it fails a Sneak, should it be allowed to just Sneak again because it knows it's undetected?

Or does the monster only realize it's undetected when it tries to use Aquatic Ambush but realizes it can't use that, leaving the action unspent?

SuperParkourio wrote:

Additionally, it's strange to allow a requirement to assign power to something. By its nature, the requirement is a restriction on when the action can be used. Removing the requirement should cause nothing more than an increase in situations where it can be used. But by applying specific vs general as suggested here, it insinuates that removing the requirement would actually deprive the monster of the power to know when it is undetected. Isn't that a little strange?

I still maintain that you are OVERTHINKING this. The ability isn't necessarily granting any special powers to the monster. Let's read the action again

Aquatic Ambush wrote:

Requirements The monster is hiding in water and a creature that hasn't detected it is within the listed number of feet; Effect The monster moves up to its swim Speed + 10 feet toward the triggering creature, traveling on water and on land. Once the creature is in reach, the monster makes a Strike against it. The creature is off-guard against this Strike.

The words "triggering creature" suggest that it's not so much that the action is granting the monster any especial knowledge that they're undetected as it is just something that is instinctively used by the monster when a qualifying target is in range, most likely in an initial AMBUSH situation wherein the monster was Avoiding Notice at the start of the encounter. How much effort the monster puts into becoming undetected to use it after the trap is sprung or foiled is up to you as the GM. Are they the more stalkerish type of monster that wants to hit-and-run or are they bloodthirsty enough to simply attack normally if they can't use Aquatic Ambush? Upon browsing the monsters with the ability, I'd probably not spend much time having them try to re-enter stealth after they're detected unless their description or the adventure says that's their strategy, they had high stealth bonus for their level (suggesting they're a stealth predator), a higher than animal int bonus (of which I count five out of the twenty on AoN), or simply lacked ANY other strong attacks

There doesn't need to be any deep analysis of the action or any implications that the action grants its possessor special faculties outside of its own use. Just run it as written and be as fair as you can be as a GM. Don't have all your crocs bypass the deliciously beefy frontliner to monch the caster behind them if they're both valid targets

[Deriven Firelion]

SuperParkourio wrote:

So what should happen if the monster has Aquatic Ambush and doesn't use it? If it fails a Sneak, should it be allowed to just Sneak again because it knows it's undetected?

Or does the monster only realize it's undetected when it tries to use Aquatic Ambush but realizes it can't use that, leaving the action unspent?

My assumption when I DM using Aquatic Ambush is the creature is hidden and undetected. I have the PCs roll initiative and if none of them beat the creatures Stealth, then it gets to use aquatic ambush. If they do, then it doesn't against the PCs that succeeded.

I'd rather use the monster ability to surprise the PCs with something scary like some huge, stealthy monster at home in the water suddenly attacking out of the murky water or from some field of concealment like a kelp field.

Main thing is to capture the feel of an ability like Aquatic Ambush.

[SuperParkourio]

Avoid Notice actually uses the enemies' Perception DCs to determine state of detection. The actual Perception checks only matter if the monster beats the Perception DCs but loses initiative. This causes the monster to be undetected but not unnoticed, allowing those who won initiative to Seek.

So if the monster loses initiative but still beats those DCs, it should be able to use Aquatic Ambush as long as it's still undetected by the time its turn comes around.