A successful check to Hide makes you Hidden, but doesn't allow you to move.
A successful check to Sneak makes you Undetected and gives you the option of moving.
Both are one action and require you to have cover or concealment.
Why ever bother taking the Hide action?
Because there may be feats which modify Hide but not Sneak. It opens up specific design space.
The reverse is also true. Feats like Sneak Adept further incentivises me to Sneak rather than Hide, as it means I can never fail, short of critically failing. That's quite nearly equivalent to a +10 bonus on all Stealth checks to Sneak.
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Why Hide? Because Sneak doesn't work if you are observed.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement.
If you don't Hide or otherwise become hidden before Sneaking, you won't become undetected.
I... think I completely agree with RD on this one.
Splitting up a skill action into two like that makes it way harder to use/build for either of them because of the dilution as to each getting separate bonuses / abilities.
In theory, items/effects could all say "to Hide or Sneak" but that's not going to happen.
Splitting up one action into two is literally a known design method to nerf an option that's too strong.
I doubt this was an intentional nerf, but it very much has the effect of that.
I'm going to asspull guess that, in practice, any Stealth PC I make would be improved from pretending that Hide does not exist, including any Hide-only feats, and to instead only enhance Sneak.
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My guess is that there used to be more differences between the two actions during early development, but they found a mechanical wording that worked for both, and never thought to actually delete Hide and swap to a "You |can| move" wording inside Sneak. That, or it may have been simple historical inertia, but I cannot really imagine that any system being created ex-nihilo would have such a redundant action on purpose (they are too close for an intentional nerf-split to be possible/probable, IMO).
Why Hide? Because Sneak doesn't work if you are observed.
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement.If you don't Hide or otherwise become hidden before Sneaking, you won't become undetected.
Well, this might be another "majority running the dying rules wrong" situation.
SuperParkourio is right, and it's 0% ambiguous.
Hide is how PCs go from observed to hidden.
Sneak is how PCs go from hidden to undetected.
This is absolutely brutal on the action economy, but it's clear that the RaI 100% matches the RaW, so long as you triple-read all the key words.
You are not supposed to be able to Sneak when observed at all. Doing so has no effect on foes.
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What really kinda sucks is that this kinda causes incentive issues, twice over.
Not only is it generally better to pop effects that give the Stealth PC hidden automatically, but now there is a 1A tax if you only have concealment to work with.
It basically means that Stealth PCs *really* want to spend gp on getting auto-hidden, such as Bottled Nights, etc, so that they can avoid needing to spend the 1A Hide tax.
Considering the other thread on this forum right now (this one) this has made me think it would've helped quite a bit if Sneak had the Prerequisite "You are hidden or undetected to one or more creatures" (although given how this is all Secret checks, that probably wouldn't work either).
But yeah, as has been pointed out, Sneak doesn't do anything if you're Observed to everybody. The loop is meant to be Hide->Sneak, at it's base.
Though it does work better if you can negate the action tax. I played a Halfling Gunslinger (Sniper) w/ Assassin Archetype and thanks to Covered Reload + Ceaseless Shadows I was extremely effective.
As has been pointed out, there is no such prerequisite in the Sneak action. The first sentence even indicates that you can perform the action whether or not you are Undetected.
Can you please more clearly explain how you guys are coming to the conclusion that you must be Hidden first?
Ah, I see my issue. There's a sidebar. Easy enough to miss if you're reading the Stealth skill options in Pathbuilder (which doesn't include the clarifying sidebar information like AoN or Player Core).
So being really stealthy is really a two action activity that requires not one, but two successful checks then? Until you get high level feats or abilities, or are opposing lower level enemies, that seems unnecessarily difficult to pull off! I don't know of very many other abilities in this game that require two successes to work well.
Alright, so you can Sneak without using the Hide action first if you are approaching characters or creatures that didn't know you were there (how you would be aware of their cognizance is anybody's guess, but whatever).
Presumably, you can take the Sneak action even if there was, say, a third party observing you from hiding. The Sneak action says that on a Success, you’re Undetected by the creature(s) during your movement and remain Undetected by the creature at the end of it.
Per that statement, how would you still be observed? A Success makes you Undetected!
(Mostly playing Devil's Advocate at this point.)
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Alright, so you can Sneak without using the Hide action first if you are approaching characters or creatures that didn't know you were there (how you would be aware of their cognizance is anybody's guess, but whatever).
Exploration mode with feats like Terrain Stalker that then transition to encounter mode (probably combat).
Presumably, you can take the Sneak action even if there was, say, a third party observing you from hiding. The Sneak action says that on a Success, you’re Undetected by the creature(s) during your movement and remain Undetected by the creature at the end of it.
Per that statement, how would you still be observed? A Success makes you Undetected!
(Mostly playing Devil's Advocate at this point.)
Detecting Creatures: The conditions are relative to each viewer. So it is perfectly valid to be hide and sneak away from one enemy while still being observed by another one. If successful, you would be Undetected to the one creature and still Observed to the other.
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lol don't lie. Even in Pathbuilder - even the phone app version - the sentence SP quoted at you upthread is right there in the Sneak action. It's the first sentence of the second paragraph and begins with, "At the end of your movement"
You really shouldn't hack apps and change things just to make a point. :P
Seriously though... *LOLs in disbelief.* Wow. I'm really blind apparently.
So if I have Legendary Sneak, does starting as Observed matter when attempting to Hide or Sneak? It says I no longer need cover or concealment, but that's not the same thing as being observed.
Legendary Sneak doesn't mean that you are unable to become Observed or don't become Observed when you do something in combat.
You always have the benefits of Avoid Notice in exploration mode, so you can always roll a Stealth check while hammering an ally's shield back into shape. Most combats are going to start with you being Undetected to most, if not all of the enemies.
You can Sneak up to one of them and stab them in the face without worrying about cover or concealment, no matter how many Sneak actions it takes you to get there - though you do still have to succeed at your skill checks.
Once you stab them though, you have done an action that is not Step, Sneak, or Hide, and definitely isn't something that the GM should rule as being unobtrusive enough to go unnoticed. So you will become Observed by that enemy (and probably the enemy's allies that have line of sight to you) once you stab them in the face.
You can Hide again immediately afterwards though. So the enemy will know which square you are in, but will have a DC 11 flat check to target you successfully. You can then stab them in the throat this time while they are off-guard to your attacks, or Sneak away to a different square.
But if you don't use Hide after stabbing them in the face or the throat, you will end up Observed by that enemy during their turn. And if you don't Hide first, Sneak won't be nearly as effective as you would hope it would be.
The enemies can also use Seek to find you even with Legendary Sneak allowing you to be Unobserved in the middle of the room. You would still have to Hide and then Sneak in order to become Unobserved again.
The Sneak action is necessarily a very complex beast with ball thr moving parts (relative degrees of awareness, tracking different creatures' awareness, relative cover/concealment), which unfortunately leads to the description being not particularly straightforward to read.
Since you can technically attempt a Sneak in an open hallway surrounded by guards, there's no prerequisite, even if the results Won't be favorable unless you bring your own means of concealment (ie invisibility).
Since Finoan already answered for the question I was going to, let me try the next: Legendary Sneak indeed only removes the cover/concealment requirements. It otherwise functions as before regarding levels of awareness; you have to be at least hidden to become undetected when you sneak, even though you can now attempt to hide yourself in the middle of that open hall from before.
Edit: damn, too slow twice. This is what I get for trying to sleep in
In many cases, you don't need to Sneak. Hidden gives you protection against non-area effects. Undetected does the same and hides what square you're in. If all you want is the flat check protection and to make the enemy off-guard, a single action to Hide will be sufficient.
When I ran the Beginner Box, I had a mid-boss spam Hide and Strike in his own smoke. He gave the players more trouble than the final boss, even though both monsters are PL+2, the latter awards 40 extra XP, and the latter had an overtuned area effect (the Remaster nerfed it).
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⬛ = Solid Wall
⬜ = Grid Space
Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️ = Monster
⭕ = Red Mage
⚫ = Black Mage
Consider this situation:
⬜Ⓜ️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️️⬛⚫⬜
⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬛⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⭕⬜⬜
There's this monster on one side of the wall, Black Mage is on the other, and Red Mage is in between. The GM has decided that in this case the monster has some cover from Red Mage, but is visible.
The monster is Observed to RM. The monster has also just belched loudly after eating another PC, so to BM the monster is Hidden, because BM could hear where it was (using an imprecise sense).
The monster now decides to Sneak two squares south, and rolls really well on Stealth. After this, the monster is still Observed by RM, but to BM it's become Undetected.
If instead the monster had first used Hide, using the cover to be allowed hide from RM, then the monster could have been lurking undetected from RM as well.
Sounds about right. If something cannot see you, you are hidden by default from that specific thing.
As long as it doesn't have some other Precise sense that could still pick you up from that position, of course.
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As has been pointed out, there is no such prerequisite in the Sneak action. The first sentence even indicates that you can perform the action whether or not you are Undetected.
Can you please more clearly explain how you guys are coming to the conclusion that you must be Hidden first?
You attempt to move to another place while becoming or staying undetected. Stride up to half your Speed. (You can use Sneak while Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, or Swimming instead of Striding if you have the corresponding movement type; you must move at half that Speed.)
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement.
Bolded the most relevant bit. Because Hide and Sneak are both secret, the player doesn't necessarily know if they were hidden when they started sneaking, so it can't be a prerequisite to performing the Sneak action. But in a sense, it's a prerequisite to succeeding at the Sneak action.
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Alright, so you can Sneak without using the Hide action first if you are approaching characters or creatures that didn't know you were there (how you would be aware of their cognizance is anybody's guess, but whatever).
You can Sneak when you're Observed by everyone. Being Hidden or Undetected isn't a requirement for taking the action, it affects whether you can succeed.
Presumably, you can take the Sneak action even if there was, say, a third party observing you from hiding. The Sneak action says that on a Success, you’re Undetected by the creature(s) during your movement and remain Undetected by the creature at the end of it.
Per that statement, how would you still be observed? A Success makes you Undetected!
No, you can't score a success against a creature to whom you were observed to start, because when you Sneak action states "the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement[.]" If you were neither Hidden from nor Undetected by a creature, your Stealth result isn't compared to that creature's Perception DC, and so you don't get a success (or a failure, or a critical success, or a critical failure) against that creature at all. The Sneak action doesn't affect a creature to whom you were neither Hidden nor Undetected at the start of your movement.
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Sounds about right. If something cannot see you, you are hidden by default from that specific thing.
Which means that if you have the movement speed to do so, you can Action 1: move out of view (assuming vision as the only precise sense), giving yourself the Hidden condition, and Action 2: Sneak to wherever you wanted to end up in the first place.
Same action cost, but only one Stealth Check to risk failing.
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Thanks everyone! I can see the whole picture much better now.
I'm kind of surprised that a Critical Success on a Hide check doesn't seem to make you Undetected.
I'm kind of surprised that a Critical Success on a Hide check doesn't seem to make you Undetected.
If all you do is Hide, they still know your location.
Ranged rogues Hide to get off guard and sneak attack on one shot per round if no one helps them out. As a dex action they’re more likely to build for that than Deception to create a diversion and invest in the confabulator skill feat.
The reason it doesn't have a prerequisite is probably because this condition is per enemy. You can sneak against one enemy while fully observed by another.
There is a creature ability that does list a lack of detection as a prereq though. Aquatic Ambush requires the monster to be undetected to its target. This is a bit odd since the monster doesn't usually know if that's true, but that's a discussion for another thread.
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The reason it doesn't have a prerequisite is probably because this condition is per enemy. You can sneak against one enemy while fully observed by another.There is a creature ability that does list a lack of detection as a prereq though. Aquatic Ambush requires the monster to be undetected to its target. This is a bit odd since the monster doesn't usually know if that's true, but that's a discussion for another thread.
I think that's okay, because the issue with secret knowledge comes from the notion that the GM knows, not the players.
The relationship between player and PC is not the same as between GM and NPC.
So while the players are outright unable to use contextual actions that require secret info preconditions, monsters can, because it's not actually secret info for the GM.
This thread made me realize that one should (very arbitrarily) Sneak if only moving a short distance. Who knows who your PC might be Hidden to, like say if there's some guard nearby who might react if they think there are more people in your current area than expected. Rare, yes, but if there's zero cost, just Sneak anyway. (Of course, there might always be that social cost of "Why are you prancing & skulking, Ragnor?")
The reason it doesn't have a prerequisite is probably because this condition is per enemy. You can sneak against one enemy while fully observed by another.There is a creature ability that does list a lack of detection as a prereq though. Aquatic Ambush requires the monster to be undetected to its target. This is a bit odd since the monster doesn't usually know if that's true, but that's a discussion for another thread.I think that's okay, because the issue with secret knowledge comes from the notion that the GM knows, not the players.
The relationship between player and PC is not the same as between GM and NPC.
So while the players are outright unable to use contextual actions that require secret info preconditions, monsters can, because it's not actually secret info for the GM.
The GM should not have the monsters act on knowledge they do not have. Just like a player character doesn't know which defense is worst without RK, the monsters shouldn't magically know which player character has the worst AC simply because the GM asked for everyone's AC.
Besides, players can indirectly use Aquatic Ambush by summoning monsters and commanding them to do it.
The GM should not have the monsters act on knowledge they do not have. Just like a player character doesn't know which defense is worst without RK, the monsters shouldn't magically know which player character has the worst AC simply because the GM asked for everyone's AC.
Generally, I agree, but it's easy enough to have the monsters take queues off of observable variables within their environment. For example, a monster might suspect that the robed wizard is easier to munch on then the armored knight at a glance (even if that turns out not to be true).
Besides, players can indirectly use Aquatic Ambush by summoning monsters and commanding them to do it.
That's a good point.
The GM should not have the monsters act on knowledge they do not have. Just like a player character doesn't know which defense is worst without RK, the monsters shouldn't magically know which player character has the worst AC simply because the GM asked for everyone's AC.Generally, I agree, but it's easy enough to have the monsters take queues off of observable variables within their environment. For example, a monster might suspect that the robed wizard is easier to munch on then the armored knight at a glance (even if that turns out not to be true).
Besides, players can indirectly use Aquatic Ambush by summoning monsters and commanding them to do it.That's a good point.
This is a (secondary) reason that I like dressing some of my Monks like a cloth caster. Dumber monsters will see a soft target while canny ones might see a magical threat to address. The very dumbest (or unreasonably strong) ones might nab the largest or nearest target.
As for Aquatic Ambush I think that falls in the sphere of monsters being capable of using their abilities. That might require some wiggliness, but I'd apply that same wiggliness to summoned creatures.
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... There is a creature ability that does list a lack of detection as a prereq though.
Aquatic Ambush requires the monster to be undetected to its target. This is a bit odd since the monster doesn't usually know if that's true, but...
Except, the monster might know, or at least be reasonably sure. I find it fairly easy to "read" a person's body language and infer to what degree they are oblivious to my presence.
That, however, is nigh on impossible to replicate on a TTRPG battle map.
Aquatic Ambush isn't using sneak to target.Sneak doesn't target though.The reason it doesn't have a prerequisite is probably because this condition is per enemy. You can sneak against one enemy while fully observed by another.There is a creature ability that does list a lack of detection as a prereq though. Aquatic Ambush requires the monster to be undetected to its target. This is a bit odd since the monster doesn't usually know if that's true, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Requirements The monster is hiding in water and a creature that hasn't detected it is within the listed number of feet;
The requirement for the ability is that the target has not detected the monster. So, to SuperParkourio's point, the monster would, indeed, need to have some kind of metagame knowledge in order to use the ability; the knowledge that it is undetected.
The tricky thing is that there are no rules governing the use of an ability that you mistakenly thought you met the requirements for. This rule does come close though.
If you fail to target a particular creature, this doesn't change how the spell affects any other targets the spell has.
If you choose a target that isn't valid, such as if you thought a vampire was a living creature and targeted it with a spell that can target only living creatures, your spell fails to target that creature.
So it could be that the monster moves up to its swim Speed + 10 then reaches the target only for the Strike to be wasted because the monster wasn't undetected after all. Or maybe the monster doesn't get to move the full distance either.
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Choosing Adversaries' Actions says to have the enemy act on the information it actually has, not the information the GM has. It also clarifies that enemies do act on wrong information and are at least as susceptible to mistakes as the PCs.
Having a monster automatically know that it's undetected is simply not supported by the rules. A rule has to be made up here because there is a hole in the rules. If you want to make up a rule that says monsters with Aquatic Ambush always know whether their Sneak succeeded, that's your call.
"When selecting targets or choosing which abilities to use, rely on the adversaries' knowledge of the situation, not your own. You might know that the cleric has a high Will save modifier, but a monster might still try to use a fear ability on them. That doesn't mean you should play adversaries as complete fools; they can learn from their mistakes, make sound plans, and even research the player characters in advance."
Well, that is there in plain english.
I guess it's also technically invalid for monsters to have selective actions with secret info as a prerequisite.
For things like Aquatic Ambush, I do like that idea that the foe should attempt an action where the specific outcome is an either-or depending on the PC being unaware or not.
Basically, the monster attacked in the same ambush-y way without any secret info, but the *outcome* of that ambush-y attack will vary based on the secret info. If their prey is unaware as the movement ends, that's a free Strike. Otherwise, they only closed the gap and will need another action if they wish to attack.
That way it kinda becomes the same thing as Sneak; no secret info requirement, but uses secret info for its outcome. You can always attempt a Sneak, but if you were not Hidden before the attempt, it's not going to do anything more than look like an awkward half-Stride.
(To be clear though, that's still breaking RaW a tiny bit to make it work)
The requirement of the ability is that the monster be undetected by the target. This isn't like Sneak where there is NO such requirement that the user be hidden to all observers before it can even be used. You cannot use Aquatic Ambush on an invalid target, so just run the action as written and stop overthinking it. We're not robots to be balked by a trivial paradox or exception to the rules. Hell, just think of this as another specific over general situation
The question / contradiction becomes which rule do you think the book expects you to use to trump the other one, because that's what happens when rules contradict each other.
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Do you think you are supposed to hold true to the instruction of "rely on the adversaries' knowledge of the situation, not your own." and then massage/"fix" the ability to be compatible with that,
or
Do you think you are supposed to hold the ability's prerequisite of secret info as instruction to "ignore the secret info rules", and to let the monster know when it can use the ambush ability?
Specific overiding general would be if the monster had a passive ability that allowed it to know if it was undetected, overriding the Sneak action's secret trait. Aquatic Ambush isn't actually giving the monster the ability to know its state of detection, it's just that the writer forgot that the monster isn't supposed to know that.
There are also player actions that have this same problem. Sense the Unseen and Hidden Paragon are both triggered by specific degrees of success on actions that have the secret trait, making them unusable by RAW. Again the thread I linked earlier goes into that more.