Do skeleton characters need to breathe?

[Captain John Finch]

While it’s not listed explicitly under basic undead benefits for a skeleton PC, it seems reasonable that a skeleton character wouldn’t need to breathe. Thus they could operate under water without a method of breathing water or an air supply, and wouldn’t suffocate or need to hold their breath if swallowed whole. Air born poisons could still be a problem if interpreted to be contact-based rather than inhaled. The undead benefits are pretty explicit about poison, simply granting a saving throw bonus.

I can see where not needing to breathe might be considered OP, but it is a rare ancestry only accessible via a rather expensive boon that can be purchased only once per player.

Is there any official ruling on this?

[Kyrand]

Captain John Finch wrote:

While it’s not listed explicitly under basic undead benefits for a skeleton PC, it seems reasonable that a skeleton character wouldn’t need to breathe. Thus they could operate under water without a method of breathing water or an air supply, and wouldn’t suffocate or need to hold their breath if swallowed whole. Air born poisons could still be a problem if interpreted to be contact-based rather than inhaled. The undead benefits are pretty explicit about poison, simply granting a saving throw bonus.

I can see where not needing to breathe might be considered OP, but it is a rare ancestry only accessible via a rather expensive boon that can be purchased only once per player.

Is there any official ruling on this?

https://paizo.com/pathfindersociety/faq

FAQ says wrote:

What are the rules for undead PCs in the Pathfinder Society campaign?

Undead PCs, such as skeletons, follow the following rules, in addition to all rules from their source material. Please note that these are campaign-specific clarifications and should not be treated as official errata or design clarifications.

- Skeletons and other undead do not use the undead creature traits, instead using the Basic Undead Benefits (Book of the Dead 44).

- Skeletons and other undead do not need to breathe unless otherwise stated.

- Undead PCs cannot be targeted by PC-casted resurrect rituals or similar. We have updated the Second Chance boon to indicate that it can also be used to bring these PCs back to life in their undead state if desired.

- As per an update to the Guide to Organized Play, undead PCs can obtain an oil of unlife anytime a Pathfinder Society-aligned NPC would give them an equivalent potion of healing. The Character Options have also been updated to allow all PCs to purchase oils of unlife without owning the Advanced Player's Guide.

[Captain John Finch]

Kyrand wrote:

Captain John Finch wrote:

While it’s not listed explicitly under basic undead benefits for a skeleton PC, it seems reasonable that a skeleton character wouldn’t need to breathe. Thus they could operate under water without a method of breathing water or an air supply, and wouldn’t suffocate or need to hold their breath if swallowed whole. Air born poisons could still be a problem if interpreted to be contact-based rather than inhaled. The undead benefits are pretty explicit about poison, simply granting a saving throw bonus.

I can see where not needing to breathe might be considered OP, but it is a rare ancestry only accessible via a rather expensive boon that can be purchased only once per player.

Is there any official ruling on this?

https://paizo.com/pathfindersociety/faq

FAQ says wrote:

What are the rules for undead PCs in the Pathfinder Society campaign?

Undead PCs, such as skeletons, follow the following rules, in addition to all rules from their source material. Please note that these are campaign-specific clarifications and should not be treated as official errata or design clarifications.

- Skeletons and other undead do not use the undead creature traits, instead using the Basic Undead Benefits (Book of the Dead 44).

- Skeletons and other undead do not need to breathe unless otherwise stated.

- Undead PCs cannot be targeted by PC-casted resurrect rituals or similar. We have updated the Second Chance boon to indicate that it can also be used to bring these PCs back to life in their undead state if desired.

- As per an update to the Guide to Organized Play, undead PCs can obtain an oil of unlife anytime a Pathfinder Society-aligned NPC would give them an equivalent potion of healing. The Character Options have also been updated to allow all PCs to purchase oils of unlife without owning the Advanced Player's Guide.

Thank you!

[Quentin Coldwater]

Time to bring up an old issue: do skeleton PCs bleed? They are not covered in the FAQ, and I've seen discussions flare up about this.

Some people say that undead PCs don't bleed, as per the normal skeleton creature, but that isn't reflected in their PC statblock.

I personally think that's a strong bonus to be given to PCs, especially since it's not listed in their statblocks (then again, not breathing also isn't...).

Against: Skeletons (and zombies) don't have a circulatory system, so what's there to bleed?
Pro: Magical animating life-force? I admit, it's not a great argument, but I feel it's reasonable. Also, if skeletons are immune to bleed, then so should Poppets. They could lose stuffing, but it's not vital to their functioning.

Not breathing is powerful, but very circumstantial. You won't encounter that very often. But lots of creatures or effects inflict bleed damage, and you could encounter that several times across a single level. Being immune to that while not listed as a benefit feels like a big oversight.

I could envision it being an ancestry feat, or a heritage even, but considering Skeletal Resistance is a level 9 feat, I definitely wouldn't give it baked into the ancestry itself.

[Kyrand]

Quentin Coldwater wrote:

Time to bring up an old issue: do skeleton PCs bleed? They are not covered in the FAQ, and I've seen discussions flare up about this.

Some people say that undead PCs don't bleed, as per the normal skeleton creature, but that isn't reflected in their PC statblock.

I personally think that's a strong bonus to be given to PCs, especially since it's not listed in their statblocks (then again, not breathing also isn't...).

Against: Skeletons (and zombies) don't have a circulatory system, so what's there to bleed?
Pro: Magical animating life-force? I admit, it's not a great argument, but I feel it's reasonable. Also, if skeletons are immune to bleed, then so should Poppets. They could lose stuffing, but it's not vital to their functioning.

Not breathing is powerful, but very circumstantial. You won't encounter that very often. But lots of creatures or effects inflict bleed damage, and you could encounter that several times across a single level. Being immune to that while not listed as a benefit feels like a big oversight.

I could envision it being an ancestry feat, or a heritage even, but considering Skeletal Resistance is a level 9 feat, I definitely wouldn't give it baked into the ancestry itself.

It's indirect, but this does already have an answer, in the definition of bleed damage (as copied from AoN, italics added by me):

Player Core 1, pg 407 wrote:

Another special type of physical damage is bleed damage. This is persistent damage that represents loss of blood. As such, it has no effect on nonliving creatures or living creatures that don't need blood to live. Weaknesses and resistances to physical damage apply. Bleed damage ends automatically if you're healed to your full Hit Points.

[HammerJack]

Yes, this has always been answered by the definition of bleed. Because skeletons are not living creatures, they cannot bleed. There's no ambiguity, and they don't need to make any special mention.

Poppets, however, are living creatures. So the clear rule that nonliving creatures don't bleed doesn't apply. That only leaves the "or living creatures that don't need blood to live". That clause is not tied to any mechanical trait and the system does leave it to the GM to arbitrate. I have not seen any campaign ruling to remove the legitimate table variation from that answer for any of the living creatures, PC or NPC, that seem to fall under it.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Fair, good point, thanks for pointing that out. Still feels like a powerful ability to give to a PC without specifically mentioning it, though.

But while I was looking this up, I found something. Lots of undead from Monster Core specifically call out immunity to bleed, while older books don't. Is that just clarifying and moving the indirect reference to bleed immunity into the stat block, or are there also Monster Core undead that actually are susceptible to bleed? I haven't looked at all the undead creatures in MC to confirm either way.

My question wasn't meant to be contrarian, just a new question that popped up.

[Quentin Coldwater]

Nevermind, some better filtering on Archives of Nethys gave me the answer. Pretty much all Monster Core undead are immune to bleed, except, weirdly enough, vampires. But blood's supposed to be their thing, so I guess it makes sense that they bleed.