https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door/
Recently I've been wondering about the interaction between Dimension Door and immediate actions since my current character has access to both Dimension Door and Emergency Force Sphere.
The Dimension Door spell has a special clause in its rules: "After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn"
So after reading this, my question would be whether or not Dimension Door prevents me from using immediate actions or is the only purpose of this mechanic to effectively end the turn on which I cast Dimension Door?
Another weird interaction would be with the Mystic Theurge's Spell Synthesis ability which allows you to cast two spells from two different classes as a full-round action. If you first resolve Dimension Door, it wouldn't prevent you from casting the second spell since you are not really taking another action but are instead in the middle of the action which you used to cast Dimension Door, right?
Dimension door's restriction applies. You cannot do anything that would count as an action until your next turn. Technically, even a free action would still be restricted. So you can't dimension door and drop an item, or fall prone, or even speak.
A permissive GM might allow you to speak when you arrive, "Here I am!", but that would be their own call and houserule and not technically allowed.
Reading the mystic theurge's spell synthesis ability, it does not appear to interfere with that. You can use it as a full-round action to cast dimension door and another class's spell simultaneously.
The issue is where you say dimension door 'resolves first'. That's not how it works, they are cast at the same time. The only one who can really resolve that is your GM, and trying to have a set, universal rule based on the sheer number of spells that can be comboed with DD would be impossible.
Usually, they would happen together. Both occur simultaneously. You cast DD and bull's strength on yourself, you have the extra strength when you arrive at your destination. You don't technically get the bonus and then teleport or arrive and then get the bonus. Likewise, I wouldn't necessarily apply one spell's penalty to a target in relation to a synthesized spell. If you cast hold person and fireball, even if you had them roll to save against the hold person first, I wouldn't count them as paralyzed (0 Dex) for purposes of the Reflex save against fireball.
Similarly, you don't cast dd and magic missile and arrive and then unleash the missile at a target at the destination. Even if you could see the target from your original location, I would rule it would have to be valid as you complete the casting (ie, within range), since it's completed as you complete the dimension door.
Now, in my opinion:
Obviously with so many spells, there's probably countless combinations of things to come up with where one going off could be important, but I think for balance, it has to be viewed that the spells happen (and must be legal) at the same time. For instance, I wouldn't allow synthesizing dimension door and bull's strength to let you target an ally out of range even if you're teleporting next to them. You could cast them together to touch an adjacent ally as you teleport away. I would also allow it if you were teleporting with them as part of dimension door. Otherwise, you could be holding that charge to touch the ally at the destination, but, even though you get a free action to touch someone after casting a melee touch spell, dimension door's wording would trump using that action.
Pizza Lord wrote: Dimension door's restriction applies. You cannot do anything that would count as an action until your next turn. Technically, even a free action would still be restricted. So you can't dimension door and drop an item, or fall prone, or even speak.
A permissive GM might allow you to speak when you arrive, "Here I am!", but that would be their own call and houserule and not technically allowed.
Reading the mystic theurge's spell synthesis ability, it does not appear to interfere with that. You can use it as a full-round action to cast dimension door and another class's spell simultaneously.
The issue is where you say dimension door 'resolves first'. That's not how it works, they are cast at the same time. The only one who can really resolve that is your GM, and trying to have a set, universal rule based on the sheer number of spells that can be comboed with DD would be impossible.
Usually, they would happen together. Both occur simultaneously. You cast DD and bull's strength on yourself, you have the extra strength when you arrive at your destination. You don't technically get the bonus and then teleport or arrive and then get the bonus. Likewise, I wouldn't necessarily apply one spell's penalty to a target in relation to a synthesized spell. If you cast hold person and fireball, even if you had them roll to save against the hold person first, I wouldn't count them as paralyzed (0 Dex) for purposes of the Reflex save against fireball.
Similarly, you don't cast dd and magic missile and arrive and then unleash the missile at a target at the destination. Even if you could see the target from your original location, I would rule it would have to be valid as you complete the casting (ie, within range), since it's completed as you complete the dimension door.
Now, in my opinion:
Obviously with so many spells, there's probably countless combinations of things to come up with where one going off...
Perhaps I misunderstood the Spell Synthesis effect then, I am mostly confused because of this sentence in its description: "You can make any decisions concerning the spells, such as the spells’ targets, independently."
To me that made it seem like there is a certain order where the effects are resolved in.
Attela wrote: Perhaps I misunderstood the Spell Synthesis effect then, I am mostly confused because of this sentence in its description: "You can make any decisions concerning the spells, such as the spells’ targets, independently." The way I read that line is that both spells are independent. They are not linked to the other one. For instance, you do not have to target the same target(s) with both spells. You could cast charm person and cause fear and have one affect one target and the other affect another. In the case of a mystic theurge it is usually better to affect the same target with both, since it gives the target penalties and the caster a bonus to overcoming spell resistance.
It means you don't have to have spells share the same location, targets, or areas of effect. You can have fireball and ice storm go off and they don't have to be centered together. You can have the fireball go off 50 feet to your left and the ice storm appear 25 feet to your right as long as that's in each spell's range, respectively.
Similarly, if a target was immune or protected from one spell the other would potentially still work. Same deal with SR. You would check for both spells, you wouldn't check once (though you'd count as 2 levels higher, as per the mystic theurge's ability).
Pizza Lord wrote: Attela wrote: Perhaps I misunderstood the Spell Synthesis effect then, I am mostly confused because of this sentence in its description: "You can make any decisions concerning the spells, such as the spells’ targets, independently." The way I read that line is that both spells are independent. They are not linked to the other one. For instance, you do not have to target the same target(s) with both spells. You could cast charm person and cause fear and have one affect one target and the other affect another. In the case of a mystic theurge it is usually better to affect the same target with both, since it gives the target penalties and the caster a bonus to overcoming spell resistance.
It means you don't have to have spells share the same location, targets, or areas of effect. You can have fireball and ice storm go off and they don't have to be centered together. You can have the fireball go off 50 feet to your left and the ice storm appear 25 feet to your right as long as that's in each spell's range, respectively.
Similarly, if a target was immune or protected from one spell the other would potentially still work. Same deal with SR. You would check for both spells, you wouldn't check once (though you'd count as 2 levels higher, as per the mystic theurge's ability). What about this hypothetical scenario; a Mystic Theurge uses Spell Synthesis to cast Dimension Door twice.
How does the targeting work? What if they choose two different locations that are both within range of Dimension Door? Which location would they end up at since both spells trigger at the same time?
Attela wrote: What about this hypothetical scenario; a Mystic Theurge uses Spell Synthesis to cast Dimension Door twice.
How does the targeting work? What if they choose two different locations that are both within range of Dimension Door? Which location would they end up at since both spells trigger at the same time?
No idea. Assuming you had, for some reason, somehow decided to learn dimension door for two different classes, one arcane and one divine...
and wanted to cast use both spell slots with mystic theurge's spell synthesis...
you could do it.
Then your GM would either roll randomly or just pick one that seems best. Or say "Screw it" and give you some custom teleport errors chart.
Particularly tricky situations are up to the GM, the rules don't always cover every possibility.
Pizza Lord wrote: Attela wrote: What about this hypothetical scenario; a Mystic Theurge uses Spell Synthesis to cast Dimension Door twice.
How does the targeting work? What if they choose two different locations that are both within range of Dimension Door? Which location would they end up at since both spells trigger at the same time?
No idea. Assuming you had, for some reason, somehow decided to learn dimension door for two different classes, one arcane and one divine...
and wanted to cast use both spell slots with mystic theurge's spell synthesis...
you could do it.
Then your GM would either roll randomly or just pick one that seems best. Or say "Screw it" and give you some custom teleport errors chart. It is not really an uncommon or unreasonable situation. The Mystic Theurge has another class ability called Combined Spells which allows them to cast spells from another class by using the spell slots of a different class. For example, if the Mystic Theurge has access to Dimension Door through sorcerer levels and also has enough levels in cleric, they could potentially use a 5th level cleric slot to prepare Dimension Door. The Travel Domain could also grant them the ability to cast Dimension Door as a cleric. Surely there are many other ways but this is quite a simple one.
But I see that the topic is getting a bit convoluted and as happykj said, I can handle this personally with my GM, but I'm always interested in the broader opinion and RAW/RAI aspects of the game. Thank you for your insight on the matter.
the problem with simultaneity is spell targeting and spell specifics have to apply in both situations and that's not always possible which leads to spell failure. The game takes pains to be sequential (see initiative).
Pointed hypotheticals usually require a GM to resolve the disconnect/raw snafu. Thus YMMV.
Azothath wrote: the problem with simultaneity is spell targeting and spell specifics have to apply in both situations and that's not always possible which leads to spell failure. The game takes pains to be sequential (see initiative).
Pointed hypotheticals usually require a GM to resolve the disconnect/raw snafu. Thus YMMV.
If spell synthesis allows simultaneous casting (which it appears it does), I don't see a problem with simultaneous but independent targeting taking place with each spell. That's the point of the ability - to do two different spells (and everything you need to do for both) at the same time.
Arkat wrote: Azothath wrote: the problem with simultaneity is spell targeting and spell specifics have to apply in both situations and that's not always possible which leads to spell failure. The game takes pains to be sequential (see initiative).
Pointed hypotheticals usually require a GM to resolve the disconnect/raw snafu. Thus YMMV.
If spell synthesis allows simultaneous casting (which it appears it does), I don't see a problem with simultaneous but independent targeting taking place with each spell. That's the point of the ability - to do two different spells (and everything you need to do for both) at the same time. Consider the Dimension Door example above.
If the targeting of both DDs is simultaneous you are limited to the range of a single spell, but, maybe, you can transfer yourself +2*(1 friend every 3 levels).
If the targeting is sequential you can transfer yourself +1 friend every 3 levels to twice the spell range.
Reading the ability description, I would use the first interpretation, as the casting of the two spells is part of the same action. However, some spell combinations, such as Flame Strike + Icy Prison, must be resolved sequentially.
commentary
IDK that I'd personally rule two dim doors could take you twice as far (aka 'no') as simultaneous castings, but twice the load/passengers seems a sure yes. Again, your GM will arbitrate what they think is fair.
Doing personal spells or spells on touched travellers seems a safe bet.
As you are in a GM's grey area your mileage will vary.
My experience with simultaneous comes from physics and math which provides more insight than the common english usage but it is a game and you try to stay within the game model.
There's lot of fun/crazy things to try that may or may not work. The issue is that if the player is allowed to arrange the spells (which should be simultaneous), they will almost always come out greatly benefiting. That's why the GM should be the one to make the call. Certainly, there can be a GM that always wants the player to benefit and probably the rare one that never does. I believe most will want to take an even-handed and fair approach or make it random if there's an issue.
For instance, if a caster only had remove blindness and blindness/deafness spells left, they could cast it on the target. If the player got to choose, it would always be remove first, then blindness, but that probably isn't appropriate, they should cancel each other out simultaneously. Otherwise they'd basically be giving the target a –2 penalty to their save and as well as a bonus to overcome spell resistance.
With two dimension doors, I would say the destination has to be within the range of the spell when completed. If the range is 100 ft (for this example), and you synergized two dimension doors, you can't hopscotch 200 feet (100' then another 100'). I would allow the caster to bring more people along, say they can bring themselves and four others, they could bring four instead. If there's an issue with where the caster ultimately ends up, it should be the GM's call. Same if the caster had one spell targeted 100 feet to the north and the other 100 feet to the south. Both destinations are within range, but if they're sequential, once you're at one, you're out of range to reach the other. The GM can say you end up at one or the other, or that you don't move at all, or that there's a tear in space time and dump you someplace else for fooling with magic.
You could certainly also cast summon monster and a summon nature's ally (as long as they have the same casting time). There's nothing stopping you, but if at the time you complete the casting and want to place the creatures, you can obviously put them in a clear space, but that doesn't mean you can put them both there. Nothing stops you, but the GM will be the proper person to determine what does and does not happen when you make the decision to do something so unusual. The answer is likely that one or the other won't appear, either their call or at random.
I also wouldn't let a caster pair a spell with limits, like hit points with a damaging spell to get the target under the threshold. If you cast power word kill (101+ hit point target are unaffected) with a damage spell that simultaneously dealt damage, I wouldn't count it if it brought the target below 101 hp. Other GM's may vary, and that's fine, but it's best to talk with them before hand and get an idea how they do it. If they say, "Whatever benefits the caster," then that's fine (in their game), if they say it's random, that's also fine. The wording is that they happen together, even though mechanically one or the other will have to be resolved or saved against in some order or the other.
Advice
I think when you go into the experimental zone with untested spellcasting the GM should set a Spellcraft DC of 15+CstrLvl or SplLvl to answer questions about if the caster believes it will work. That way the knowledge is tied to a skill check rather than 'free info' (aka DC 10).
Players should test out important combos before expecting them to work in combat on the first attempt.
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