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I still think it is just on par with being a Magus archetyping into Imaginary Weapon
Well that is on obvious problem as well.
It is not so much that these powers break the game, it is just that they are obviously significantly better than the alternatives so we just no longer see players take the other options. Sometimes that is just players not being open minded but there are a few things now like Exemplar Archetype, Imaginary Weapon and Ancestral Memories which are just head and shoulders above their alternatives.
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A few things to establish framing this discussion:
- The Exemplar Archetype is Rare, per the Alternate Mythic Rules PDF.
- Rare means "PCs can access only if you specifically make [it] available."
- The archetype gives you a full-powered ikon, with the only real downside that you don't have a second ikon to shift into (effectively meaning you have to burn an action every time you transcend.)Like in the playtest, Ikons have two effects: a passive one that you get whenever the ikon hosts a spark (immanence) and an activated one that requires you to move the spark out of the ikon (transcendence.) Many of the Ikons in WoI have immanence effects that are very useful on a number of classes (e.g. "you add 1-3 spirit damage/damage die to your strikes" on a weapon ikon). This makes it perhaps the single most powerful level 2 archetype feat in the game, and something a lot of characters would take every time they could.
But because it's rare "every time you could take the archetype" is not every character or every campaign, it's "only when the GM tells you that you can." But at the same time, rarity is not supposed to correspond to power levels. So how do you plan on handling this? How does one balance between "the exemplar MC enables some cool concepts" and "the exemplar archetype makes most characters more powerful." Is there a fix possible or needed here?
It kind of is already solved in the opening list, by the GM saying "No, it's a Rare Archetype, you can't take it/you don't have access to it." And given that the class' main design requires that you are infused with God power, it's not difficult for a GM to adjudicate whether characters qualify for it or not. As for it "enabling cool concepts," you can have those story tie-ins without the broken MCD, either by picking another relevant MCD (Blessed One is both strong and flavorful in that respect), or by simply leaving it strictly to roleplaying (i.e. you might get some edges in non-combat scenarios, but probably not being any more mechanically powerful otherwise).
Now, should the archetype have had those broken options? Probably not, since Rarity is being used for something it shouldn't be used for. But its ability to be present in the game is strictly hinged on whether the GM wants to allow the broken option, or even the gateway to it, available or not. It's actually less problematic than Imaginary Weaponry, Firearms, et. al. in my opinion, simply because the GM has far less leniency or capacity to disallow such a thing, given Rarity is no longer a barrier (or is far less of a barrier and has fair guidance and adjudication for how to acquire them without the need of a dedication).
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Sometimes that is just players not being open minded but there are a few things now like Exemplar Archetype, Imaginary Weapon and Ancestral Memories which are just head and shoulders above their alternatives.
So true. I'd still put Imaginary Weapon aside the other 2 as it's only imbalanced on a Magus while Ancestral Memories and now Exemplar Archetype are interesting on a wide array of builds. The overall impact on balance is much bigger.
It's interesting to me to compare a weapon ikon to the fixed Heaven's Thunder feat, a thing I have actually felt good about taking on a character.
Heaven's Thunder is a level 6 feat with a level 4 feat prerequisite, needs an action to activate it, and does not offer a transcendence effect. It does offer more damage types (half sonic, half electic), automatically damages people who grapple you, and works with ki blast but that pales in comparison to "you're a feat ahead and can spend it on other stuff with the exemplar archetype, including a 2nd ikon eventually."
This is such a bad take. There are a host of things for spell strike balanced around 1d12 or 2d6 per rank. Imaginary Weapon is 2d8 which is a big step up. Then there is the multitargeting ...
You are saying there is a problem with the design of the class instead? Look Magus works fine. It may not be for you, or what you want. Fair enough but lots of people like it.
I love the concept of the Exemplar. It just seems to have some issues around the edges.
Animist on the other hand repulses me as a concept.
This is such a bad take. There are a host of things for spell strike balanced around 1d12 or 2d6 per rank. Imaginary Weapon is 2d8 which is a big step up. Then there is the multitargeting ...
You are saying there is a problem with the design of the class instead? Look Magus works fine. It may not be for you, or what you want. Fair enough but lots of people like it.
Okay, a few things there.
1. There is no attack roll spell that deals D12 damage. No, Shocking Grasp doesn't count anymore, it is now Thunderstrike, which is a save, so it's disallowed from the conversation. The closest we have is Disintegrate, which is D10s, and that is terrible because it involves a save with a weak DC. Then we have Gouging Claw, which is 1D6 + 1 bleed, with 1D6 + 1 bleed per rank. And we now have Live Wire, which is 2D4 per rank, with 1D4 persistent damage, and still doing 1D4 per rank on a miss. And before you say "But Expansive Spellstrike," that is a feat that just lets you use save-based spells, which still use saves at your reduced DC progression. Even if it had optimal DC progression, it's still two separate dice rolls for it to work, which is precisely what makes Disintegrate and Ray of Enfeeblement bad damaging/offensive spells (thank goodness the latter was fixed in the Remaster, now I might actually pick it up, even though it's still Fortitude saves, which is what every offensive monster has good saves in; oh well, now it's just less stupid).
2. 2D8 plus 1D8 per rank isn't that much stronger than Gouging Claw or Live Wire damage-wise (which, by the way, still does an effect on a miss, a unique trait behind that attack cantrip that Imaginary Weaponry doesn't get), and you'd have to Amp it to get the 2D8 per rank. It's really one of the few justifications for spending 2 feats on it; it probably wouldn't be as looked at if the Magus class feats were better or offered something unique that other classes don't get, or if they actually had plentiful and potent spell slots to utilize damaging spells with that they wouldn't look at the cantrip dedication class for help.
3. You can't multitarget with Spellstrike. Spellstrike limitations means you can't split your strike or your cantrip damage, so being able to target multiple creatures isn't a helpful benefit. Now, if we are talking area effects, you'd need Expansive Spellstrike for that, but even then it's not that good, since most area-based effects are save-based, which runs into the same issues as before. Not to mention, a fair amount of those area effects will also damage you, especially if you are a Melee Magus.
I think the Magus+imaginary weapon synergy gives a good idea of the risk that could happen with this dedication if left as-is: just like how every Magus is somehow also part-Psychic, and how every Fighter previously was adopted by gnomes (so that they could pick the pre-nerf gnomish flickmace), we may very soon end up with lots of different characters also being part-Exemplar just for the overly strong synergy and benefits. The archetype may be rare, but that to me just says that a lot of players are liable to start pestering their GM to allow the class, or at least their archetype, just for the sake of that OP mechanical synergy. The very idea of needing a specific multiclass archetype to "complete one's build" is abhorrent in my opinion, and if builds are truly unnecessarily weak without the aid of a particular ikon, then we should work to make those builds function of their own accord, instead of expecting an OP archetype to make up for their shortcomings.
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1. There is no attack roll spell that deals D12 damage. No, Shocking Grasp doesn't count anymore, it is now Thunderstrike
So much that is wrong here. Shocking Grasp is still legal according to Paizo if your GM says and most do. Fire Ray, Withering Grasp, Briny Bolt, Hydralic Push, Admonishing Ray all work fine. Yes of course people use focus point spells and amp.
I don't understand why you would cite another problem (the zero sum that is magus psychic dedication) with this problem.
It's still a problem and paizo still not replying.
If you're a melee Magus and you go with the psychic dedication for IW, why wouldn't you take spellswipe? You can take advantage of the multi target ability, if you use a weapon with sweep you can get +1 to hit both targets.
Okay, a few issues with this too:
1. Spellswipe requires your targets to be adjacent to each other. Unless you can bottleneck them, or your targets are completely stupid and are fine fighting side by side instead of flanking their enemies, they won't always be in this position to utilize it.
2. You need to make a roll for each target, and isn't one roll for both like it is with other Swipe feats.
3. You need to spend all 3 actions to do this. If you aren't Hasted, you can't reasonably do this unless you set it up from the previous round. This is like saying 3-action Heal/Harm is perfectly valid for AoE healing. Combined with #1, it's really hard to set this up without Haste, and when Haste becomes commonplace, it becomes another action tax, in a sense. Oh, and if you used Spellstrike prior to this, and need to recharge? Good luck setting this back up (short of being 20th level and taking the Supreme Spellstrike feat, at which point Haste becomes ancillary).
It's not to say that this isn't a useless thing, but it requires proper set-up and isn't really the absolute endgame solution it's made out to be.
So much that is wrong here. Shocking Grasp is still legal according to Paizo if your GM says and most do. Fire Ray, Withering Grasp, Briny Bolt, Hydralic Push, Admonishing Ray all work fine. Yes of course people use focus point spells and amp.
1. There is no attack roll spell that deals D12 damage. No, Shocking Grasp doesn't count anymore, it is now Thunderstrike
Not sure how that is, since I imagine PFS made the switch, and the product it came from is no longer supported, and the amount of people who don't own Core Rulebooks are going to be pretty small in comparison now, especially since they are out of print and can't legally be reprinted without triggering OGL shenanigans. And it's only a matter of time before Nethys scraps Premaster content entirely (just gotta wait for Paizo to finish the IP erratas for books like SoM) because maintaining two "versions" of an already expansive site is too much for them, so we're really just watching its death knell.
Fire Ray and Withering Grasp are both from Cleric dedications, which are feasible with Magus, but if you're taking those, then odds are you don't have access to Imaginary Weaponry, at the very least until much later in your adventuring career, since both are mutually exclusive to a Dedication. They also can't be spammed, and are competing with your Conflux Spells, which are meant to be action-savers that let you still contribute to combat. Same goes for Amps.
Briny Bolt does decent damage, but has weak critical benefits, and is really only good because it comes with a debuff rider that can also serve as an action depriver if the enemy decides to act upon it. When you get access to higher level spells, this does lose its luster, both as something meaningful and as something that does potent damage. Same goes for Hydraulic Push, but instead of debuffs, it's battlefield control, and Admonishing Ray just offers some non-lethal options.
And really, if you're going for damage, Gouging Claw/Live Wire do more by comparison, all without taking up valuable spell slots for buffs/utility, which are far more precious to the Magus as they gain levels.
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Not sure how that is, since I imagine PFS made the switch, and the product it came from is no longer supported, and the amount of people who don't own Core Rulebooks are going to be pretty small in comparison now, especially since they are out of print and can't legally be reprinted without triggering OGL shenanigans.
So much that is wrong here. Shocking Grasp is still legal according to Paizo if your GM says and most do. Fire Ray, Withering Grasp, Briny Bolt, Hydralic Push, Admonishing Ray all work fine. Yes of course people use focus point spells and amp.
PFS hasn't "made the switch". The PFS rule is that if a rule element has the same name in premaster and remaster, that you must use the remaster version, but if they have different names you can still take use the premaster option. (For pretty much all cantrips they issued *errata* to bring them up to standard, but that happened a long time ago.)
I could believe that at some point they might forbid the old spells for characters created after a certain date, but even then it will be years before those characters level out of play. (Just like my Runelord and Hallowed Necromancer Wizard still get to use premaster spell schools even though those don't exist anymore for most characters.)
Shocking Grasp isn't going anywhere any time soon.
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There is a literal order of magnitude difference here.
It is simpler and more straight forward and it's use case is most martials. So I agree. It is a more grievous case of the same problem.
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Not sure how that is, since I imagine PFS made the switch, and the product it came from is no longer supported, and the amount of people who don't own Core Rulebooks are going to be pretty small in comparison now, especially since they are out of print and can't legally be reprinted without triggering OGL shenanigans. And it's only a matter of time before Nethys scraps Premaster content entirely (just gotta wait for Paizo to finish the IP erratas for books like SoM) because maintaining two "versions" of an already expansive site is too much for them, so we're really just watching its death knell.So much that is wrong here. Shocking Grasp is still legal according to Paizo if your GM says and most do. Fire Ray, Withering Grasp, Briny Bolt, Hydralic Push, Admonishing Ray all work fine. Yes of course people use focus point spells and amp.
1. There is no attack roll spell that deals D12 damage. No, Shocking Grasp doesn't count anymore, it is now Thunderstrike
Shocking Grasp is explicitly legal in PFS. The rule in PFS is that anything that was reprinted with the same name is treated as errata and you MUST use the new version. Shocking Grasp was never reprinted, thus PFS treats Thunderstrike as a different spell entirely and Shocking Grasp is legal.
(If only remastered stuff is legal, Magus/Psychic themselves wouldn't be allowed and its a moot point.)
Home game GMs are free to treat this however they want, including "Shocking Grasp has been replaced by Thunderstrike and so you must use that", but that is not a rule. The remaster books themselves provide no hard rule on this, so the PFS ruling is the only "official" Paizo ruling on the matter but is also only meant to apply to PFS.
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Imaginary Weapon and Ancestral Memories are problems too, but they're problems two feats deep into archetyping and draws from the same focus pool many of your cool in-class stuff draws on as well. Exemplar Archetype gives its main benefit immediately and said benefit is a passive that works perfectly with no action cost on whatever your class wants to do. It's a significantly bigger problem.
OK...what am I missing?
I understand the Imaginary Weapon problem, but what is so broken about Ancestral Memories?"The memories of long-dead spellcasters grant you knowledge in a specific skill. Choose any non-Lore skill, or a Lore skill related to the ancient empire from which your bloodline sprang. You temporarily become trained in that skill and might gain other memories associated with an ancestor who was trained in that skill. If you attempt a task or activity that lasts beyond this spell's duration, use the lower proficiency modifier.
Heightened (6th) You temporarily become an expert in the skill you choose".
How is this overpowered?
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You’re missing the new player core 2 version.
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You’re missing the new player core 2 version.
Ah...Aon isn't fully updated.
So this is what you're talking about:The memories of long-dead spellcasters grant you their
knowledge, making your spells more formidable. You gain
either a +1 status bonus to the next spell attack roll you attempt
before the end of your turn or an enemy within 60 feet takes a
–1 status penalty to the next saving throw they attempt against
a spell you cast before the end of your turn.
Heightened (5th) The bonus increases to +2 or the penalty
increases to –2.
Heightened (8th) The bonus increases to +3 or the penalty
increases to –3.
So what's the 'unintended abuse' combo that makes it a problem?
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The Starlit Span Magus gaining imaginary weapon through the psychic archetype is the same sort of problem, sure, but it's really not as severe as the exemplar archetype issue.
The exemplar archetype is:
- lower investment (one level 2 feat vs. level 2 and level 6 feats)
- requires no activation and no resources.
- works on every single character that wants to hit people with a weapon (and a few others to boot.)
It's reasonable that Paizo ignored the Starlit Span Magus being very powerful with Imaginary Weapon since that's just one subclass of one class. The fact that every Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Champion, Rogue, Swashbuckler, Inventor, Thaumaturge, and Gunslinger is going to want to take the Exemplar Archetype is a lot harder to ignore.
On the other hand, I wonder if maybe this isn't intentional. A common complaint I've heard is people thinking their damage is too low, and "a feat for +2-8 damage" isn't exactly game-breaking, even if it is an autopick for a number of classes.
This is the first time I realized that Ancestral Memories gives a status penalty against your saves. That's actually less powerful than I thought. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's way strong, and kinda miss the old imperial sorc as the skill-y one, but at least its being a penalty means you can't stack it with most other penalties, like Clumsy, Frightened, or Stupified.
Well, it does stack with attack spells.
The focus spell is contextual.
Which means that each and every time you might loose some +__ due to non-stacking status, you have the choice to instead use an AC spell (hello there, Live Wire) and get the fully stacked benefit (along w/ other potential AC exclusive debuffs like off-guard). (or vice versa if you've already got attack status bonus)
That kind of flexibility in a buff/debuff that alters spell rolls is pretty nuts. Kinda the definition of evergreen.
Thought this thread was about the Exemplar Multiclass, but the last 20-30 posts have been Magus/Psychic. I think I'm in the wrong place
Nope it is about power creep.
"But imaginary weapon" is a weird smokescreen, imo complaining about the magus should go in its own thread.
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I feel there's a bit too much of a focus on the specifics of the Magus and imaginary weapon here: in my opinion, the example is salient not because of any particular mechanical interactions, but because it is simply an obvious example of how very strong synergy between two different gameplay options ends up causing those options to be frequently picked together. One could easily use the example of the Fighter and the pre-nerf gnomish flickmace instead, or any other two choices that are so popular together that the combination ends up becoming overly present in play. If the Examplar archetype is what "makes" certain builds, then I think we're liable to see lots of characters in the future that are part-Exemplar just because that's what makes their build mechanically much stronger, irrespective of flavor or thematics. Rather than do our usual thing of sticking our heads in the sand, denying the obvious, and spending way too much time on irrelevant details, we should be able to at least agree that the archetype as implemented is a bit too good. While its benefits to certain builds aren't necessarily a bad thing to have, they should probably not be so front-loaded when archetypes parcel out their benefits over a spread of feats.
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"But imaginary weapon" is a weird smokescreen, imo complaining about the magus should go in its own thread.
It is a very clean cut well known example. It is rather sad that people want to argue about it again and again.
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"But imaginary weapon" is a weird smokescreen, imo complaining about the magus should go in its own thread.It is a very clean cut well known example. It is rather sad that people want to argue about it again and again.
I'm sorry, Gortle, but it's not as clear cut as you state it. It's very much a question of point of view.
Raven Black stated earlier that you don't Spellstrike with Cantrips. People negatively reacted to this statement but I clearly understand what he meant by that sentence: For him, grabbing a Focus Spell to Spellstrike is such a basic power improvement that he considers that baseline to any Magus build, Imaginary Weapon is a tax feat for him.
And you never judge tax feats on their own. It's ridiculous to state that Quick Bomber is an issue because Bombers with Quick Bomber are much better than Bombers without it. It's a tax feat, Bombers without Quick Bomber are not supposed to exist (in the mind of the one considering it a tax feat, as we have seen it's not everyone's point of view).
So if you consider it a tax feat then you have to judge the Imaginary Weapon Magus as a whole. And when it comes to the melee Magus, a lot of players struggle to get the most out of it as the class is really hard to play. So for them Imaginary Weapon is a crutch: without it, the Magus would be way too weak.
That's why I think we should remove Imaginary Weapon from the discussion. It's not at all as clear cut as Ancestral Memories when it comes to a power buff. And even the impact of Ancestral Memories can be seen as subjective, as neither buff nor healing is affected and multitarget effects don't get much out of it.
One the other hand, most martials will have a strong damage specialization, making an Ikon like Gleaming Blade rather ubiquitous on any slightly optimized build.
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We will see how many people actual go out and get 2 sorcerer feats to pick up ancestral memories as a focus spell. I think a lot of folks will read these boards and try it, but then ditch it after they realize that there will be many encounters where they have much better things to do with their actions and their focus points to be paying a two feat tax for a sometimes better than a skill check ability.
I don't think we will really see that much of the exemplar spam though because the dedication is rare and, minimally, players are going to have to really justify and sell it to their GMs to get it. That doesn't mean it won't eventually get an errata, just that it is not something that desperately needs a fix because GMs who feel it is a problem already have a rules method for dealing with it.
We will see how many people actual go out and get 2 sorcerer feats to pick up ancestral memories as a focus spell. I think a lot of folks will read these boards and try it, but then ditch it after they realize that there will be many encounters where they have much better things to do with their actions and their focus points to be paying a two feat tax for a sometimes better than a skill check ability.
Uh, enforcing a status bonus on a spell attack or a status penalty on a saving throw for a crucial spell is pretty potent and well worth the focus point and action cost. Yes, the former can be replicated with other effects, but the latter, not so much. Really the only major problem behind this is justifying the +2 Charisma and dedication investment, but even that can be negligible if you're Aiuvarin with Multitalented or are already a class/character that is investing in Charisma and don't have any other dedication plans.
It might not be as build-defining as Imaginary Weaponry, but it's still quite powerful and unique that I imagine we will see several builds make use of it.
And you never judge tax feats on their own. It's ridiculous to state that Quick Bomber is an issue because Bombers with Quick Bomber are much better than Bombers without it. It's a tax feat, Bombers without Quick Bomber are not supposed to exist (in the mind of the one considering it a tax feat, as we have seen it's not everyone's point of view).
It... it is a huge issue. The biggest.
Quick Bomber is the strongest feat in the Alchemist class outright. The last thing holding Quick Bomber back was that you could not use it with Additives & Quick Alchemy. Bombers needed to commit to 2A to brew such bombs.
Now that Bombers can Make + Throw in 1A, all Alchemists got hit with a new 1 Additive per turn nerf.
Quick Bomber used to be limited to one side of the Prep VS Quick schism, which used to cut the old Alch class in half. (this is how Skunk Bomber was designed to be "balanced". It was only possible to scale the DC with a 2A commitment. Now that it's a 1A thing, it's unjustifiably strong)
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Quick Bomber is so absurdly OP now, it's a pseudo 3:1 action compression when used with Double Brew.
All alchemists are stuck either using the combo and throwing a bomb for 0 actions as they perform Q-Alch or not doing that and leave that 1A empty every time they invoke Q-Alch.
I don't think there's another "choice" like that in the whole system. It's like if Running Reload were L1, and instead of a Stride, it allowed you to shoot any time you did a Draw/Reload.
Or if Magus had a L1 feat called "Recharging Strike" that post-remaster allowed them to now use it inside any other Strike-containing activity.
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One last time:
Old Quick Bomber was a bomb-only Quick Draw, nothing more. And it was already the most important feat.
New Quick Bomber is Quick Alchemy compression. This "optional" 2-->1 or 1-->0 action compression is a problem.
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After the remaster, new Quick Bomber has gotten to the point of IMO finally breaking Alchemist. It's not really "Alchemist" any more, it's the Bomber class. If you don't like the idea of playing Bomber, don't pick Alchemist.
And it is this upside down balance of Quick Bomber that IMO is the largest factor in this outcome.
Paizo have essentially washed their hands of it by making the Archetype Alch a better option for any Alchemist player fantasy that's not a Bomber.
I'm completely serious with this take. The all day buff bot style is dead, and the only thing non-Bombers miss via Archetype are recharging VVs and class feats. Archetype Alchemists literally have access to the same daily item number, and to potentially higher item DCs (because the most important alch feature is of course a feat).
Again, an arch Alchemist will have no lagging item level(dedication), daily item count(2 feats), and they swap the item's DC w/ their own main class DC(1 feat).
(yes, Alchemist literally can never put Legendary DCs into their own items, but other classes now can)
By centering the Alch features on improving the worthless specialty uses of the Quick Vials, they killed those Alch types. I outright do not recommend playing them. (Bomber is still a good / fun pick if you like it)
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IMO, all this really does go back to Quick Bomber.
So overwhelmingly much of the Alchemist's power budget is in that stupid feat that there's no room anywhere else. They even nerfed Healing Bomb. Again, Additive bombs went from 2A to 1A. IMO, this is 100% why it's complete trash now. Because Paizo are that scared of 1A Quick Bomber using MAP to heal allies with crappy healing elixirs.
When reviewing Healing Bomb in the new context, Paizo was presented with a (perceived) balance issue. Instead of nerfing Quick Bomber, they buffed it and nerfed Healing Bomb into a F-tier feat instead. (IMO) Because they consider the whole class dependent upon Quick Bomber's power, and were too scared of the consequences of touching it.
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So yes, if you see a feat/feature like Quick Bomber, and think,
"hey, hold on a moment. How can you balance something that's only function is to make their main 2A activity into a 1A activity. A 'it just works' style improvement with 0 downsides, caveats (not even flourish), etc? Isn't that horribly unbalanced?"
YES IT IS. Listen to that voice, and come up with another solution. Or you might end up hollowing out the entire class in an attempt to keep the upside-down tower of cards "intact."
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To bring this back to the main topic, balance is hella important yall.
Imaginary Weapon is ONE damage step above the norm. And yes, it's the whole package of cantrip, focus spell + point, and one step that makes it "too good" a match for Magus.
The fact that it's such a polarizing example on these forums should lend some perspective to the wider discussion when more obvious balance problems arise.
The main lesson being that, yes, if the math is too blatantly OP, even within a specific sub context, that's a design fail that forever taints the system and discussions of it.
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Soooo, yes. Paizo absolutely should bite the bullet and release post-publish material to nerf the crap out of the Dedication/Archetype.
(After what they've done in the remaster, I honestly no longer have confidence it will happen.)
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We will see how many people actual go out and get 2 sorcerer feats to pick up ancestral memories as a focus spell.
Ancestral Memories is really a high level thing as the bonus increases. At low level, a -1 is very far from broken, and even a -2 is not completely broken. It's really when you get to -3 that there's no discussion about it.
So I think a lot of people will move out of their way to get this -3 at high level, but due to the quantity of low level play compared to high level play, I'm not sure this issue will be as obvious as the Ikon thing.
I don't think we will really see that much of the exemplar spam
It'll be a problem around many tables where the GM is rather permissive (which was totally ok before). But in our Internet age, I expect people to quickly know that it has to be banned. So you can say it's "not a problem" to have an auto-banned feat, I consider that it's in need of an errata.
quick bomber stuffThe only thing that Quick Bomber does is bringing bombs on par with regular weapons action economy wise.
So, it's mandatory if you plan to use bombs, irrelevant if you're an unarmed/weapon build.
So realistically only useful for half the alchemists.
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Having a feat to enable a play style (bomb throwing) is not out of bounds compared to the rest of the system and vastly different than a blanket damage buff for every single weapon attack that the Exemplar dedication is giving.
If you play Alchemist, it is mandatory in the same way people are arguing IW is for Magus, and that Exemplar will be for martials.
IW is the better comparison, because if IW did not exist then they would be spellstriking with something else, while a passive dmg boost via Exemplar is another beast.
As a Chirurgeon, I still "had" to retrain into Quick Bomber on 2 PCs I built specifically to avoid the feat (built initially before remaster).
One in SoT is a L8 Chir/Ranger/Wiz build with Quick Draw, Gravity Weapon, and a throwing build. (yes, I retrained to get Q Bomber when I already had Quick Draw)
Even in that specific context, the ability to spend a feat and add all Q-Alch bombs for 1A was too good to pass up. Literally 0 other bomb feats or features, and they still use Q-Bomber multiple times per fight.
Skunks, Acid Flasks, and others are just that good (in comparison!).
If I'm an Alchemist, there is nothing I can do that'll contribute more to the fight.
My old Elec Arc + Jolt Coil boosted throw does not cut it anymore. (Even though it was my best at one point, I never measured up to the other PCs)
All the other Alch-actions are Strike w/ something else, and... Combine Elixir. And Combine already doesn't do enough impact in the fight to be worth the actions, especially not the VVs.
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The other PC is a Chir/Witch L12 in Stolen fate. This one has had the Blood in the Water combo for a few sessions, aaaaaand it's way better than anything else I can do. But again, it outright depends on Quick Bomber enabling a 1A slashing bomb that I know will still proc BitW even if I miss the bomb, thanks to splash.
Even though this PC planned and is invested for some grafted foot talon strikes, risking melee range and the miss not auto-sustaining BitW, when the melee kick doesn't out damage it enough, means I'm usually throwing that VV bomb. (Again, I'm an Alchemist. I don't get *anything* that improves my melee Strikes over bombs. Just runes.)
(I also use/used Organsight with the same combo, but BitW is a focus spell that'll recharge, and doesn't require later RK checks)
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Alchemist really has nothing else going for it. Picking the perfect bomb out of a hat for 1A is waaaay better than using Combine Elixir. I'm hoping the L13 will incentivize me to heal more, but I'm not looking forward to all the Striding around and needing 2A chunks for Quick + Feed.
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quick bomber stuffThe only thing that Quick Bomber does is bringing bombs on par with regular weapons action economy wise.
So, it's mandatory if you plan to use bombs, irrelevant if you're an unarmed/weapon build.
So realistically only useful for half the alchemists.
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Having a feat to enable a play style (bomb throwing) is not out of bounds compared to the rest of the system and vastly different than a blanket damage buff for every single weapon attack that the Exemplar dedication is giving.
If you play Alchemist, it is mandatory in the same way people are arguing IW is for Magus, and that Exemplar will be for martials.
Exemplar is mandatory for Alchemists, too. Horn of Plenty creates 1-3 scaling free elixirs per day that level with you, can instead make magical potions up to your level if you know the formulas (cheap for chirurgeon who is already investing in crafting), can load a total of 1 bulk of elixirs/potions from other sources (like your daily elixirs), and as your immanescense ability you can one action draw and drink from the horn. Your transcend one action draws and applies the effect of the potion/elixir to an ally within 60.' If the elixir/potion restores HP, you can even split the effect between you and the ally.
Exemplar is mandatory for Alchemists, too. Horn of Plenty creates 1-3 scaling free elixirs per day that level with you, can instead make magical potions up to your level if you know the formulas (cheap for chirurgeon who is already investing in crafting), can load a total of 1 bulk of elixirs/potions from other sources (like your daily elixirs), and as your immanescense ability you can one action draw and drink from the horn. Your transcend one action draws and applies the effect of the potion/elixir to an ally within 60.' If the elixir/potion restores HP, you can even split the effect between you and the ally.
Alchemist is still chained to Quick Alchemy, our daily items are too few to be our primary / first combat option. And this is incompatible w/ the horn.
I do think you're right though, because VVs are so impossibly biased toward bombs via Quick Bomber, it mostly removes bombs from the prep considerations (GM might allow poisoning prep bombs), which further opens up dailies for horn-stashed elixirs.
The potion option is frankly, dumb as hell. I spent a whole class feat on Cauldron to get a single daily potion as an Alchemist because of how good potions are compared to elixirs. (and because the one class feat to add more prep items grants an Alchemist.... +2 items. Fuuuuuck me.)
Drinking a potion of quickness for 1A is better than an R3 spellslot casing Haste. (I use an injection spiked gauntlet)
I honestly don't know if they ever remembered to balance for that drinking being 1A like that. Because this means that even an action tax to reload the horn's spark or whatever (not seen the real text) can never be worse than casting a 2A buff spell of the same effect.
That horn allowing free potions basically means you get 1A self-only buff spells, or 2A party buff spells. Also funny that the horn is 60 ft, while many/most buff spells are 30 ft.
(Meanwhile, elixirs are all still sub-potion-par, so sipping either a potion or elixir for 1A basically means that you'll nearly never prep Exemplar elixirs)
more irrelevant bomb stuffJust because you like bombs, it doesn't make them necessary for alchemists.
Half the fields do not even work with bombs at all.
Again:
At most, only half the alchemists will be using bombs.
Dude, this is like saying that only some Magii will want to prioritize spellstriking for damage.
All the fields work with bombs if you are an Alchemist with Quick Bomber. Full stop, that's enough to make bombs more than competitive with Alch's other combat options.
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The numerical reality of what an Alchemist can do means that a 1A full-book bomb will never lag behind their other Strike enough to be ignored. Yes, you have to be able to do some apples VS oranges due to non damage effects, but this is still extremely blatant.
As I said, I built those 2 Chirs explicitly to find other damage routines that were not bombs.
And neither could avoid Quick Bomber once the remaster hit.
The Witch has a bunch of L1 slashing bombs and can Draw dodge, but I might as well spend a VV to do the full 3d8+3+3 instead of the 1d8+1+1. And their claws are 3d6 + 3 + 1d6 + 1d6 (only thanks to the ARP rule, else I'd not have the gp).
And even with Property + free basic runes, that alch still finds the ability to, at range, toss a bomb in the same 1A to be a better option most of the time.
Because Sick on save, Slow & Sick on fail is an absurd effect, and 3d6 persistent > 5d6 phys much of the time.
And if there is a foe weakness at play, all "performance" worries are completely gone. Proccing that weakness in an AoE on hit, or for a single foe on miss, means that'll out damage my unarmed attack every time.
And once you get to L12 play, you have a big enough roster number of utility bombs that do not need to land a hit. I can aim for a square at map to auto-push foes 5ft thanks to Boulder Seeds, or make clouds of silver razors that do save dmg each turn via Silver Orbs.
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I don't know why you keep insisting that only Bombers should care about/take Quick Bomber, but after the remaster, that take is just absurd.
This is not just MAP 0 we are talking about here.
Bombs offer MAP 5, 1A "Strike" actions that you seem to be refusing to consider. Being able to force AoE saves, put clouds onto the field, etc, are all things compressed into 1A via Quick Bomber.
And again, Double Brew exists.
If you want to use Quick Alchemy in combat for literally any item, that alchemist can benefit from Quick Bomber.
You either throw something, even a 0VV bomb, during that Q-Alch action, or you must do nothing within that action.
This is the most impossible to cry "apples to oranges" comparison in perhaps the whole system.
No amount of damage vs effects favoritism can be used as a smokescreen here.
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Someone wants to (imo waste) half their Alch feats on enhancing their elixirs?
Well, a lot of the time they can't use Combine. That's an Additive, so it's incompatible with any of those other elixir Additives.
But (after L9) it's impossible to avoid that they could always benefit from Quick Bomber. Sure, it's not an improvement to the elixir, but making an extra attack in an otherwise empty action is as blatant of a "non choice" choice as it gets.
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Half the time my Chirs want to use a Combine Elixir, that means I need to Stride to an ally. That's 3 actions.
Quick Bomber is the only way I'm able to do that and still make a Strike that turn. (sans Haste) It's absurd. And that goes for any turn w/ a 1A tax, Slow, Stride, or other.
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We will see how many people actual go out and get 2 sorcerer feats to pick up ancestral memories as a focus spell.Ancestral Memories is really a high level thing as the bonus increases. At low level, a -1 is very far from broken, and even a -2 is not completely broken. It's really when you get to -3 that there's no discussion about it.
So I think a lot of people will move out of their way to get this -3 at high level, but due to the quantity of low level play compared to high level play, I'm not sure this issue will be as obvious as the Ikon thing.
I don't think we will really see that much of the exemplar spamIt'll be a problem around many tables where the GM is rather permissive (which was totally ok before). But in our Internet age, I expect people to quickly know that it has to be banned. So you can say it's "not a problem" to have an auto-banned feat, I consider that it's in need of an errata.
I feel like you already know this, but by 15th level, in most combats of significance, a caster’s actions are worth more than almost any other resource. A +3/-3 buff/debuff is a decent use of an action, but only working for your own next spell leaves a lot on the table for how much more effectively you could have used that action to swing the encounter. A one action power word stun is minimally taking away reactions and an action for example. Even a recall knowledge check could be swinging a 3 point difference between a high and medium save or a 6 point difference between high and low at level 15, a bonus that might be useable multiple time without ever costing more actions.
In practice, I think ancestral memories has the potential to promote middling efficiency repetition of play loops over truly optimized play.The Exemplar dedication, especially as a one feat investment, is clearly a bigger issue…except, at rare, it is one the GM has been given much more powerful tools to reign in if it is going to become a problem at the table.
Also, I didn’t say it won’t ever be worth looking at/errataing, only that it is not a pressing game play issue, because of the rarity tag. Just like if there are elements of mythic play that are poorly balanced, it’s not breaking the base game because the GM doesn’t need to let that content in their game unless they want to.
Lastly, the dedication power balance issue is much less of a problem over all in games without free archetype than with it. The opportunity cost of dedications and locking yourself into one dedication for 30% of your class feats is fairly heavy, especially for a singular mechanical boost.
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I really don't get how this thread is now about Quick Bomber. That's a good feat, but it's a good feat for an Alchemist. If it's too strong, its too strong in the context of Alchemist. There are not a lot of cases where someone is taking Alchemist Dedication just to get Quick Bomber.
Lots of classes have stand out feats, which may be an issue inside that class but isn't one for the game itself.
Exemplar Dedication is not internal to any class. The game is obviously not built around people multiclassing into Exemplar. From a pure balance perspective, the devs obviously did not intend for every martial to get +2 damage/die, or an aura of +1 to hit. I think you can make a strong argument for Exemplar Dedication being the strongest 2nd level feat ever published, for any martial class, period. That's a problem in a way that "a bunch of alchemists will want to take Quick Bomber but basically no one else cares" is not.
This is the real problem in a nutshell. Exemplar Dedication is the best feat in the game for literally everyone that does damage with weapons. Nothing else so widely applicable is even in the same league as what this is giving.
This is going to be an auto-pick across the board if it's allowed. Especially in a non-Free Archetype game where you may not ever intend to actually invest in an archetype: you can take the one dedication and never invest in an archetype ever again for massive benefit.