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Another thread got me pondering this and not being able to find anything about it online I figured I'd post here and see what people think. Advice seemed the best forum as I'm looking for advice on how best to handle this. So we have our character a house ruled gestalt sorcerer/monk called "Not Gunna Die" with the following abilities . . .
1) Clone. if dead they instantly return to life in their cloned body.
2) Mythic Immortality. if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed.
3) Soul Safe. they make a horcrux and if killed have their body reform 24 hours later next to it.
4) Phoenix bloodline. When you die, you are brought back to life, as true resurrection, after 1 minute. This ability can be used only once every 24 hours, and if you are slain again within this period, your death is permanent.
5)Wont stay dead (could not find an online source on this one) traded out monks capstone for Once per week, if the character is killed, petrified, or otherwise removed from play, the character manages to survive by some dint of skill or luck and returns at the end of the combat or the scene (GM’s discretion). The player and the GM should work together to ensure that the method of the character’s survival is at least vaguely plausible, if unlikely.
Then they are "killed". Now we come to my questions . . .
1) What order would the abilities occur in and could the character have any say in them e.g. not being willing to return as the instant clone preferring to save that and use the phoenix bloodline if comabats ongoing or wont stay dead if its resolved?
2) Let eliminate the ones I think would occur in order Clone (Instant), Phoenix (1 minute), Wont Stay Dead (after Combat). How would you figure out which of the two that occur at the same time after death Soul Safe and Mythic Immortality triggers first?
Yes I know soul safe is 3rd party I'm using it because it provides a conflict between abilities and when they trigger.
Since one big rule in 'getting back to life' spells is that the target need to be willing to return with the call back, and if it wants it can ignore them. I'd say the dead should have the option to pick which call to answer to.
So he can ignore the clone's 'Let's go home' call if he wants to later on go with the phenix's 'Fiery Return'.
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Won't Stay Dead takes priority as it presumes you didn't truly die but rather some unlikely combination of gear/events/choices let you survive even though everyone thought you were dead. The other abilities never trigger.
Clone happens next (it's instant on death) presuming the soul is willing to return. If the creature knows it has other resurrection abilities that will kick in shortly it may choose to bypass the clone.
Next is Rebirth from the Phoenix bloodline, which happens after 1 minute.
After that it's debatable, as often happens when 3rd-party material is introduced. Immortal and Soul Safe both happen after 24 hours. In some cases it's clear - if you are slain by an artifact the Immortal ability doesn't bring you back but Soul Safe has no such limitation. I'd let the player choose.
Won't Stay Dead takes priority as it presumes you didn't truly die but rather some unlikely combination of gear/events/choices let you survive even though everyone thought you were dead. The other abilities never trigger.
Clone happens next (it's instant on death) presuming the soul is willing to return. If the creature knows it has other resurrection abilities that will kick in shortly it may choose to bypass the clone.
Next is Rebirth from the Phoenix bloodline, which happens after 1 minute.
After that it's debatable, as often happens when 3rd-party material is introduced. Immortal and Soul Safe both happen after 24 hours. In some cases it's clear - if you are slain by an artifact the Immortal ability doesn't bring you back but Soul Safe has no such limitation. I'd let the player choose.
This is my stance on the matter as well. If the player has gone through so much to ensure they don't meet a permanent end, let them have some leeway with how that plays out.
Just remember all of this can be circumvented by the enemy with the method of "Take'm alive!".
Why kill your foe when you can make him suffer?
also note that there is the phantom zone option.
Won’t stay dead will be the first for the reason Belafon states.
The rest happen in chronological order, but as zza ni states the target does have to be willing. The character has to make the choice of allowing or denying the method to work when the method first activates, and that choice cannot be changed once made.
The rules state that a soul knows the name alignment and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to retrieve it and may refuse on that basis. That indicates that the character has limited knowledge of what is bringing them back. This brings up the question of how much awareness does a dead character have?
Are they aware is the passage of time? Do they have any memory of things that happened after they died? For example, can they remember refusing to come back as a clone? Are they aware of the differences between the various methods they setup? How much memory does a soul have of their life and death?
If the character is the one causing these things to bring them back it might make it more difficult to figure out what method is being used than if someone else was the source of the magic bringing them back.
The problems with one's ability to sense as time laps might be an option as a lot of how we perceive time is augmented by our body's senses.
But I wouldn't touch the character's memory. that lead into question things like will it remember who's side she's on, who she made resurrection deals with, Is been called back by the powers of Abbadon a good thing for her or bad etc. not to mention the whole divination via the dead spells that might get hurt.
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Won’t stay dead will be the first for the reason Belafon states.
The rest happen in chronological order, but as zza ni states the target does have to be willing. The character has to make the choice of allowing or denying the method to work when the method first activates, and that choice cannot be changed once made.
The rules state that a soul knows the name alignment and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to retrieve it and may refuse on that basis. That indicates that the character has limited knowledge of what is bringing them back. This brings up the question of how much awareness does a dead character have?
Are they aware is the passage of time? Do they have any memory of things that happened after they died? For example, can they remember refusing to come back as a clone? Are they aware of the differences between the various methods they setup? How much memory does a soul have of their life and death?
If the character is the one causing these things to bring them back it might make it more difficult to figure out what method is being used than if someone else was the source of the magic bringing them back.
I'm curious I can see saying "no" to something with a set time limit e.g. the phoenix bloodline would miss out forever but something like clone has no real timelimit. I see it more as a constant nagging "Come back" till you either accept or its no longer a valid call e.g. you ressurect from phoenix bloodline and thus your souls no longer free to enter the clone at which point it resumes waiting till you die again and calls you to enter it.
Revivification against One's Will: A soul can't be returned to life if it doesn't wish to be. A soul knows the name, alignment, and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to revive it and may refuse to return on that basis.
The real question is what can a dead soul perceive? The rules state you know the name, alignment and patron deity (if any) of the character attempting to bring it back. It does not state that you are aware of the passage of time or have any awareness of any events that happened when you are dead which would including knowing that you had previously refused to return to life. Unless each method was caused by a different person the dead soul has no way to distinguish one method from another.
I will concede a dead soul probably will retain its memories from when it is alive, but it should have no awareness of things happening after it dies. The souls lack of awareness of events has no impact on when they happen, so the methods will happen in chronological order despite the fact the soul is not aware of time. Mythic Immortality, Soul Safe and the Phoenix Bloodline are all abilities of the character so he will know that he is the source for those. If he is also the one to cast clone, he is also the source of the spell so will have no way to distinguish it from the other methods.
Assuming the character cast clone when he dies, he will have a choice return or not. He does not know which method is being triggered. If he refuses to return, he does not remember refusing it and the next method kicks in. He is presented with the same choice but has no memory of refusing or distinguishing between the methods. So, he essentially has the same choice return or not. This repeats until no method remains. With no information of previous chances to return he is going to keep making the same choice.
If someone else cast clone on him he would be able to determine that and choose not to return using the clone. But since he has no memory of refusing to return by the clone method, he would make the same choice every time. Even if clone still kept giving you chances the character who wants to use the other methods will reject it every time.
Using multiple methods to ensure you return will work, but doing so does not give you control over which method gets used.
There is a some interesting material on the Life Cycle of Souls in the book The Great Beyond. While it doesn't quite specify exactly when a soul enters the River of Souls to be ushered to the Boneyard in which to await sorting, many other sources specify that souls can linger near their body (whether on the Material Plane or the Ethereal nearby). They do eventually get pulled into the Astral where the River of Souls is.
There is a lot more than what can be summed up in a single post but 1) Souls do retain their memories up to and sometimes beyond Judgement and assignment to their Outer Realm and 2) There is nothing that says a soul remains unaware of what is occurring to their body after separation from it (at least while they are still on THIS side of the Astral river of souls). It is quite possible that, like ghosts, the soul has means to perceive its surroundings absent from the body.
As far as I can tell, you should treat any dead character as still being mostly, if not entirely, aware of what is going around it up until the player decides which method (if any) they want to use to return to life. Let them keep as much agency as they can, as long as they can.
And if you are playing in a campaign setting that is NOT core Golarion, feel free to do as you wish.
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Interesting so that raises the question could someone with "Get out of death" free cards that they're waiting on linger longer than someone with none? For instance Joe Every Guy dies he might have someone resurrect him but otherwise he's gone. Can he hang by his body in hopes some high level character will just ressurect him for the same time as Not Gunna Die who has multiple things over a day waiting to bring them back?
Speak with Dead specifies “The soul can only speak about what it knew in life. It cannot answer any questions that pertain to events that occurred after its death.” That seems to be pretty clear that a soul does not retain awareness of things after it dies.
I do not have access to the Great Beyond and there does not seem to be any online sources that contain that information.
It would make sense that a soul’s awareness is focused on its own state and not the mortal realm. I can see it retaining awareness of its journey to its final resting place, but that does not mean it has any awareness of time or events in the mortal realm.
The actual rules on returning from the dead specify the character is aware of two possibly three things. Those are the name and alignment of the character returning him to life, and the patron deity (if any) of that character and can refuse to return on that basis. It does not mention awareness of the method of returning or time since it died.
A person who is knocked out does not have any awareness of what happened when they are unconscious, so why would someone who is dead?
Speak with Dead specifies “The soul can only speak about what it knew in life. It cannot answer any questions that pertain to events that occurred after its death.” That seems to be pretty clear that a soul does not retain awareness of things after it dies.
This is fairly interesting as the spell does target a corpse, and one that has been dead for a long time can be target so long as it is intact, and it is just that one line that references a soul. If it is indeed the corpse that is speaking, rather than a real soul (as it appears the the corpse can speak even when the soul could have been judged and sent on to their afterlife) than it makes sense that the corpse could not know of what happens to the soul.
I do not have access to the Great Beyond and there does not seem to be any online sources that contain that information.
There is a lot of material not available in free online sources that is usually setting specific. You can find some material in a wiki.
A person who is knocked out does not have any awareness of what happened when they are unconscious, so why would someone who is dead?
Metaphysics and magic do not play well with what we generally see as reasonable in the real world. There is a common trope of PCs having visions or experiences when they come close to death that don't happen in the here and now, choices that can be made on the other side and deals struck... and they remember them when they return to their body. There is no reason to straight jacket this issue to purely naturalistic sensibilities.
Speak with dead has a Target of one dead creature. The corpse is the target of the spells, but that does not mean that the soul is not the one answering it. The description does specifically state the soul is the one answering the questions.
Looking through the material on the wiki I see nothing that contradicts what I said, or gives any indication that indicate the timeline of the souls journey. The soul’s journey could be something that is outside of time itself.
The visions of those close to death could be that they are no longer part of the mortal realm and their perception point has shifted to something else. Often those visions deal with things of significance and often give glimpses of the future or even the past. Rarely do the visions involve mundane things like what is happening at the characters location. That actually supports my theory that death transcends time.
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Speak with dead has a Target of one dead creature. The corpse is the target of the spells, but that does not mean that the soul is not the one answering it. The description does specifically state the soul is the one answering the questions.
Looking through the material on the wiki I see nothing that contradicts what I said, or gives any indication that indicate the timeline of the souls journey. The soul’s journey could be something that is outside of time itself.
The visions of those close to death could be that they are no longer part of the mortal realm and their perception point has shifted to something else. Often those visions deal with things of significance and often give glimpses of the future or even the past. Rarely do the visions involve mundane things like what is happening at the characters location. That actually supports my theory that death transcends time.
That is confliceted by the rest of the spell which talks about the corpse not the soul . . .
The corpse's knowledge is limited to what it knew during life,
If successful, the corpse can refuse to answer your questions or attempt to deceive you, using Bluff.
A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers,
If your talking to the soul why would the corpse missing an arm result in less knowledge of what it did? Given that's the only sentence that refers to the soul I'd say its just a mistake to refer to it.
It also raises the question though does Pharasma keep you around just for this. Lets say some ancient corpse is dug up thousands of years old from the time before starfall and you cast speak with dead on it. Did Pharasma delay that souls judgment and progress for millenia just because your going to want to ask a few questions about everyday life back then?
That actually supports my theory that death transcends time.
Unless you are playing in a homebrew setting, I simply have to disagree with you on this point. I encourage you to dig into the lore around Pharasma and more of the cycle of the soul. Look into Groetus as well, and the relationship with the end of time.
Time flows, even when the effects of time (or rather entropy) are held at bay in the case of timeless planes. And at the end of its flow, Pharasma sits on her seat of judgement and sees herself as the final soul to be judged. Not even she can see what lays beyond that point.
School necromancy [language-dependent]; Level cleric 3
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, DF
Range 10 ft.
Target one dead creature
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; see text; Spell Resistance no
You grant the semblance of life to a corpse, allowing it to answer questions. You may ask one question per two caster levels. The corpse's knowledge is limited to what it knew during life, including the languages it spoke. Answers are brief, cryptic, or repetitive, especially if the creature would have opposed you in life.
If the dead creature's alignment was different from yours, the corpse gets a Will save to resist the spell as if it were alive. If successful, the corpse can refuse to answer your questions or attempt to deceive you, using Bluff. The soul can only speak about what it knew in life. It cannot answer any questions that pertain to events that occurred after its death.
If the corpse has been subject to speak with dead within the past week, the new spell fails. You can cast this spell on a corpse that has been deceased for any amount of time, but the body must be mostly intact to be able to respond. A damaged corpse may be able to give partial answers or partially correct answers, but it must at least have a mouth in order to speak at all. This spell does not affect a corpse that has been turned into an undead creature.
The corpse is the target of the spell and is granted the semblance of life. The corpse is where the voice originates from. The corpse is also the link to the soul. If you the corpse is damage beyond a certain point the link is imperfect and subject to misinformation. These limits are based on the spell, not the soul of the dead creature.
The fact that the spell can contact the dead target no matter how long ago they died supports the idea that the soul exists outside of time. Time in Golarion setting is kind of strange. Outsiders including deities are unable to access the dimension of time.
Time in Golarion setting is kind of strange. Outsiders including deities are unable to access the dimension of time.
Time in Golarion is not strange. The demi-plane called the "Dimension of Time" is, however, poorly understood and very little information is available on it. I would not attempt to draw wide spread conclusions from the mention of it.
Souls do not exist forever nor do they exist outside of time. They have a cycle of existence, forged in the positive energy plane, and move through the planes until they are sorted. Then they eventually becomes one with the planes (over who knows how long) and are eventually recycled through the Maelstrom into quintessence and forged anew.
It is far more logical to conclude that a 3rd level spell is drawing on the semblance of life it granted the corpse to recall its past, than to extrapolate that such a spell holds enough power to upend the lore of the setting. Also, considering that spell was pretty much copied over from 3rd edition D&D.
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Sounds like what we've got here is an attempt to graft an in-world lore explanation (souls) onto a mechanics decision - how do we justify using player knowledge to decide which way of coming back is the most advantageous? And the answer is: it's a game, and it doesn't matter.
The way I read the entirety of the lore is that the soul isn't aware of what's going on around the body, but here's why that doesn't matter: If our hypothetical PC dies, the first thing I (as the GM) ask the player is "do you want Won't Stay Dead to work, or do you want to actually be dead and let one of your return to life abilities happen?" If she wants to be dead, then I ask if she wants to jump to the clone. If she doesn't, I ask if she wants to use the Phoenix Rebirth ability. Those choices happen before any further combat plays out, so there's no knowledge to be had.
It's only the 24-hour options that get into metagamey territory. If your whole party perished in an inhospitable location you might be coming back just to be killed again. But again, it doesn't really matter. All these options happen after a fixed time period. Clone is instantaneous - "If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediately transfers to the clone." Rebirth is 1 minute. An Immortal Mythic creature comes back after 24 hours. There are no provisions in any of the abilities for "waiting a bit" to come back. Use it or lose it.
Mind you, by about the 3rd or 4th time an Immortal PC comes back just to be slaughtered again by the waiting horde of demons, he might decide to just stay dead until he senses the call of a true resurrection.
If you do want an option that gives you discretion on exactly when you return to your body (and a limited ability to tell if there are creatures are nearby) check out the Pale Orange Rhomboid ioun stone.
Not to overly beat a dead horse, but I just remembered that the book Planar Adventures has updated entries on the way death functions. One thing of particular note is this:
...Yet for some, these beliefs are strong enough to temporarily divert their travels upon the River of Souls. Fixated on some aspect of life, such souls become temporarily stuck near the Material Plane. Some are vaguely conscious of certain details in the world, usually their bodies or individuals of particular importance, and linger near them upon the Ethereal Plane. Others follow paths outlined by their philosophies to eventual reincarnation. Still others loiter in wait for something to draw them back to life. But time weighs upon all souls. As passions and ties to the mortal world dull, most of these soul eventually slip away to join the River of Souls...
...The most dangerous lingering souls become haunts or undead. Typically these souls were traumatized in the final moments of life, imbuing them with enough anger, confusion, or self-centered purpose to resist the pull to journey on. Such strong emotions allow them to influence the forces of negative energy acting on their deceased bodies. This might allow them to reinhabit their corpses, rising as types of undead creatures corresponding to the circumstances of their deaths. Others don’t reconnect with their bodies, either being too spiritually weak to do so— thus creating haunts—or manipulating negative energy into new insubstantial forms as incorporeal undead like ghosts or spectres.
If that helps any, I will be satisfied. Mechanically speaking, I've already given my opinion on how this overall issue should be handled, ie given player agency.