You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment.
I don't think it'd do much for them really. While they don't have an alignment, they still have their subtype, so would detect as evil anyway. About all it would let them do is take levels of Paladin or Barbarian.
|
You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment.While they don't have an alignment, they still have their subtype, so would detect as evil anyway.
That seems a bit incongruous for someone with "no alignment" to still be detected as evil.
Weird.
Yeah the ability wasn’t written with alignment subtypes in mind since those aren’t usually available to player characters. You could always ask your GM how he’d play it.
Like a lot of path abilities this is designed more for creatures with class levels than a monster. For a PC with an evil alignment this can be very useful. An Antipaladin with this would be able to ignore the paladins smite evil.
|
|
An Antipaladin with this would be able to ignore the paladins smite evil.
That's pretty significant.
Ok, let's say the creature in question isn't actually a full Horned Devil, but is an AntiPaladin 20/Mythic 10 Half-Cornugon who has been given a mission by Asmodeus himself to corrupt some world "X."
It seems pretty clear that Beyond Morality might suit the AntiPaladin just fine. It could certainly help him infiltrate certain parts of the world's society and make it easier for him to corrupt it from the "inside."
I guess what I'm really wondering is how Asmodeus or maybe the Lord of the Cornugons, Moloch, would feel about not wearing his "Evil" on his sleeve?
In the case of the antipaladin or a cleric of an evil deity they would still detect as evil. Both those classes have a class feature aura that causes them to detect as evil. In the case of the cleric this is true even if the cleric is not actually evil. But other than detecting as evil, they would suffer no consequences of being evil. The half fiend template changes the character type to native outsider, but does not have the evil subtype.
So, the characters would not take damage from a Holy Smite, or other spell targeting evil creatures. They would actually be treated a good character if that was more favorable. Nor would they take extra damage from a smite evil.
|
|
So, the characters would not take damage from a Holy Smite, or other spell targeting evil creatures. They would actually be treated a good character if that was more favorable. Nor would they take extra damage from a smite evil.
Yeah, I got that from your previous post. Thank you.
I moved on to a different question in my last post, though.
But since you mentioned it, is there an FAQ somewhere that makes it clear a Cleric or AntiPaladin's "Aura of Evil" is still in effect if the character has taken Beyond Morality?
Beyond Morality, after all, is a Mythic effect. I'd think it could "override" a class feature, especially one that almost never comes into play in a normal Pathfinder game.
EDIT: It's also weird that neither the Paladin's Aura of Good, nor the Antipaladin's Aura of Evil seem to be tied to the alignment of their deity. At least it doesn't say they are in the Core rulebook or in the Adv. Player's Guide.
Paladins and Anitpaladins do not have to have a deity, and have strict alignment requirements. They are more focused on good or evil than other aspects of their alignment. A paladin falls if he knowingly commits an evil act, but not if he commits a chaotic act. As long as the paladins alignment does not shift from lawful good they don’t fall for chaotic acts. The reverse is true for the antipaladin. Clerics on the other hand serve the deity first and focus on the alignment less.
Beyond Morality does what it says no more no less. It does not mention removing class features so it does not. Clerics are prohibited form casting spells that oppose their deity's alignment. Beyond Morality states that class feature s removed but does not mention removing the Aura class feature.
|
|
Beyond Morality states that class feature s removed but does not mention removing the Aura class feature.
I didn’t say it “removed” a class feature. I said it might “override” it.
But if you have no alignment, how can you register as good or evil with regards to the Detect Evil/Detect Good spells?
You’ve already argued (and I agree with you) that Smiting won’t work on a character that is Beyond Morality, after all.
This situation is conflicting and clearly incongruous. That’s why I asked if there was any clarifying language from Paizo (via an FAQ) that gives any more detail about Beyond Morality.
If you want to say the ability is stupid and should just be removed because there are too many questions about it, that’s fine. I’d probably agree with you.
But the contorted logic of certain game rules to try to explain why an AntiPaladin would still detect as evil but would not be affected by Smite Evil isn’t really helping.
You’ll need to come up with a more clear answer.
How does a character that is not evil (Lawful Neutral) radiate evil? RAW an 11th level lawful neutral cleric of Amadeus radiates an overwhelming aura of evil. Even if this character has never performed an evil act in his life, he still stuns the 5th level paladin that uses detect evil on him. A cleric or paladin has the aura because they are drawing on an aligned source even if their own alignment does not match the alignment of the source. The spell is detecting the source of the power the character draws on not their actual alignment.
The main purpose of this ability is not to mask a character's alignment; it is to protect it from the negative aspects of having an alignment. If you want to conceal a character's alignment there are better ways to do that. If you want a character to be able to infiltrate opposing groups, the trickster path ability No one of Consequences is much more useful.
An antipaladin has an aura of evil, but his alignment is chaotic evil. If you cast detect chaos on a 4th level or lower antipaladin they do not register. This is true even if the antipaladin is serving a chaotic neutral deity. At 5th level that antipaladin would register as faintly chaotic and strongly evil.
|
|
You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.Lots of things happening here, so easy to find disagreement.
So let's try to break it down.
No alignment. I'd argue this is more the fluff bit, so on to the crunch.
Become a member of any class... Ok, so you can now be a paladin without being LG, a monk without being LX, a barbarian/monk/paladin/druid multi class, etc. Non-alignment based ethics still apply, like druids wearing metal.
Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. This seems to be the first area of real disagreement, but I'm reading this as it does what it says: detect alignment spells just come back blank when used on the creature. Class, subtype, and deity are all irrelevant; it simply returns 404 error, alignment not found.
If a class restricts you from casting spells...Spell restrictions do not apply- eg. clerics of LG deities can now cast Evil and Chaotic spells. Casting spells with an [evil] descriptor is no longer an evil act for many purposes (like causing paladins to fall), as the text specifies "without restrictions or repercussions." How they use it may still violate other ethics, of course.
If you're the target of a spell or...
Bravo!
So a Half-Cornugon Tyrant AntiPaladin can infiltrate a new place and corrupt to their heart's content (assuming they don't reveal themself another way).
Still wondering how Asmodeus might feel about them not wearing their "evilness" on their sleeve, though. Sounds like it might be a bit sneaky to him, although...he IS a liar.
Hmmm...
You have no alignment. You can become a member of any class, even one with an alignment requirement, and can never lose your membership because of a change in alignment. If you violate the code of ethics of any of your classes, you might still lose access to certain features of such classes, subject to GM discretion. Attempts to detect your alignment don't return any results. If a class restricts you from casting spells with an alignment descriptor, you can cast such spells without restrictions or repercussions. If you're the target of a spell or effect that is based on alignment, you're treated as the most favorable alignment when determining the spell's effect on you. Any effects that alter alignment have no effect on you. If you lose this effect, you revert to your previous alignment.
The description specifies your alignment. The characters alignment does not matter for the class feature aura. You can actually radiate a different alignment than your characters alignment because of this. When you cast detect evil on the lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus you are not detecting the clerics alignment, but he still detects as evil. If a GM wants to change that is fine, but that is a house rule, not RAW.
|
|
When you cast detect evil on the lawful neutral cleric of Asmodeus you are not detecting the clerics alignment, but he still detects as evil.
Sorry. Not buying that.
I grok do u’s explanation is clear and concise. Without mental gymnastics or tortured logic, his explanation makes the most sense.
The simplest explanation is likely the correct one.
If it is worth anything, my opinion on the matter aligns with Mysterious Stranger. However, it differs just slightly.
If you have the Aura class feature (or a subtype), your Aura is still going to give off measurable amounts of alignment in the area, they just won't be able to pinpoint it to you. Deducing the alignment of your Aura is not impossible at that point, or that you are (or something you are carrying) is the source, but they won't be able to tell what alignment your character is.
Just my two cents. I've never really had a use for that mythic ability, so consider me unbiased on my opinion.
The ability does not negate all things based on alignment. If you look at the text of the ability a paladin committing an evil act still falls, due to the class feature Code of Conduct. That seems to me a good indication that the ability does not override class features.
The detect alignment spells are notorious for not being completely accurate. Any character that relies completely on them is asking for trouble. At best they give the character a reason to look further. The spell See Alignment is much more useful for this but would not work on someone with Beyond Morality.
I can see where DeathlessOne is coming from and could agree with this, but I would point out that the fact you cannot identify the source is going to cause some suspicion. By the third round you can determine the location of each aura.
I can see where DeathlessOne is coming from and could agree with this, but I would point out that the fact you cannot identify the source is going to cause some suspicion. By the third round you can determine the location of each aura.
This is correct, you could deduce the source, or the area (square) from which the aura is originating, but mechanically you have no way of verifying it. You'd have to use good, old fashion critical thinking. And even then, it could be the person or something they carry.
|
|
As for the original idea, I think it would be interesting to have the Malebranche retrain all the antipaladin levels into paladin. Maybe using the banishing warden archetype, with the conceit that its duty is to prepare the realm by removing all the other evil outsider rivals to world conquest. Should be able to stay generally within the code while banishing demons and daemons.
This apparent hero of countless battles against demons and other evil creatures would love to recruit a party of adventurers to help expand its influence and assist in the goal of purging demons. And how can they really argue against its encouragement that they give some coin to the local Asmodean orphanage?
Hmmm...this idea sounds SUPER interesting. I'll have to cogitate on it.
A Half-Cornugon Paladin with Change Shape as one of his Mythic abilities...neat!
BTW, did I tell you the non-Devil half of his race is Angelkin Aasimar?
This "Paladin" could Change Shape into a stereotypical Aasimar Paladin and wreak all kinds of havok. Wow.
If this is a half fiend they do not have the evil subtype. Half Fiends are native outsiders with no alignment subtype.
If Beyond Morality does not cancel the class feature Aura, the paladin would actually radiate as good.