Mountain Stance Wizard. Is it Good?

[Bluemagetim]

Something like this. Cant mountain stance till level 4 and never gets great hp. Should it start with +3 str trading 1 int?
Took civic wizard and earthy themed spells. Dedicated into martial artist for mountain stance. Monk required too much dex.

Mountain Stance Wizard, Wizard 8
N
Medium
Dwarf
Ancient-Blooded
Humanoid
Perception +12; Darkvision
Languages None selected
Skills Acrobatics +11, Arcana +16, Athletics +17, Crafting +14, Intimidation +9, Lore: Cooking +14, Nature +12, Religion +12, Survival +12
Str +3, Dex +1, Con +3, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha -1
Items Unarmored, Handwraps of Mighty Blows (+1 Striking)AC 21; Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +14
HP 82
Call on Ancient Blood Speed 25 feet
Melee +1 Striking Special Unarmed Falling Stone +14 (Forceful, Nonlethal, Unarmed, Magical), Damage 2d8+3 B
Widen Spell
Boulder Roll
Mountain Stance
Follow-Up Strike
Mountain Stronghold
Reach Spell
Drain Bonded Item
Arcane Prepared Spells DC 26, attack +16; 4th Shape Stone, Fire Shield, Mountain Resilience, Unfettered Movement; 3rd Fireball, One with Stone, Slow, Safe Passage; 2nd Acid Grip, Blur, See the Unseen, Water Walk; 1st Mystic Armor, Gentle Landing, Fleet Step, Pummeling Rubble; Cantrips Live Wire, Frostbite, Gouging Claw, Detect Magic, Scatter Scree, Prestidigitation
Focus Spells (1 points) Earthworks
Additional Feats Ancient-Blooded, Combat Climber, Dwarven Doughtiness, Fleet, Martial Artist Dedication, Powerful Leap, Quick Climb, Rock Runner, Seasoned, Steady Balance
Additional Specials Arcane Bond, Arcane School (School of Civic Wizardry), Arcane Thesis (Experimental Spellshaping), Spellbook, Wizard Spellcasting

[Castilliano]

Mountain Stance, and its defensive feats, can be good for a Wizard, most certainly. Except it looks like you intend to place them in melee, so it is not good. It'll never be good in such a dangerous situation (and those I've seen try struggle, often wishing they had memorized more firepower).

Investing a huge chunk of your abilities & having ongoing spells can get you to a generic martial level, which IMO does not qualify as "good" given the investment. Plus one could build in the opposite direction (martial picking up caster abilities, or a straight hybrid) and have a much tougher build.

Of course that's white room calculating. Starting level, party composition, and campaign theme can all alleviate some of the weaknesses, and you liking what you got is rule number one. But you asked. :)

[Gortle]

A 6HP class is too soft. Why are you trying to melee as a caster with a wizard, when there are 8HP classes Druid/Cleric/Bard that are just going to be better? I mean try the Magus.

What you have is a generalist build that is below average at everything. I guess it work OK if your GM likes to keep the campaign challenge level easy. By all means go for it.

Personally if I was playing a wizard with Mountain Stance I'd go with a different build. Keep the Int maxed. Ignore Str. Just use Mountain Stance for the AC, the style points, and not attack with it much. That would give me the free ability scores to do other things. I could even keep Dex relatively low so I could lean into other abilities and skills. It can make a max Cha wizard possible, without getting into heavy armour.

[SuperBidi]

I agree with Gortle, even if I can see a build working with high Strength. Something like 16 Str, 14 Dex, 12 Con, 10 Wis, 18 Int, 8 Cha (Android, or Elf with less Con or Gnoll with less Wis). And using Montain Stance primarily for AC but also to handle situations where you can't use spells (Will-o-Wisp or enemies with Reflexive Strike) or just as complementary damage when facing an opponent at melee range (with Flurry of Blows at level 10 and maybe even Ki Strike you can dish out quite some damage on top of your 2-action spell). Also, at low level, the combination of Strength-based Strike and Electric Arc is at the top of the damage curve (and low level Wizards struggle to be impactful so it's nice to at least be able to be a glass canon).

Having a Wizard who can double down as a martial is not bad. What's bad is a Wizard who tries to play like a martial. That doesn't work. If you want to play a martial, play a martial. You should play a Wizard primarily for spellcasting.

[Bluemagetim]

Yeah i had that base level of understanding of irremovable vulnerability.

My thought was that a wizard with +4 int was going to be doing all the wizard things most wizards would do, the only difference would be having the ability to better survive a melee enemy closing in for a round so staying within 30 ft is less punishing and when not using actions to do wizard things they could use athletics and if needed they can falling stone and has follow up strike for those inevitable misses.

How much does a wizard need to invest in spell casting feats before level 10 was the thought (along with would experimental shapeshifting cover it), what else could I do with those feats.

[SharedStratagem]

In terms of defence, the Archetype feats are costly compared to general feats into Armor Proficiency (although many other classes might want those class-feats more than the Wizard). While also requiring an action in combat to enter the stance and providing -1 effective AC until Mountain Stronghold. Mountain Stance is very much balanced around Monk's superiour unarmoured proficiency, so as a Wizard you don't benefit as much.

In terms of offence, Falling Stone only helps when you wouldn't want to to spend two actions on a spell (or other actions), and are in melee, and missed your first strike. That's highly conditional for the cost of a 6th lvl feat - especially as at level 6, you're already lagging behind in proficiency. At level 7, you could be master in Athletics, and Attack with that instead of strikes (with a Bola, you can even do this at range).

However, if you're not looking so much for the specific vibe of the kung-fu wizard, but a wizard-build where you enter a stance with defensive bonuses, and have actions to use for non-wizard thing, there's an alternative:

The Kineticist Archetype

At level 4, take Armor In Earth (or Hardwood Armor, or even Metal Carapace). At level 6+ take at least one Impulse-feat for actions to use when not spellcasting. Take the Armor Proficiency feat at the earliest opportunity.

Benefits:
* Relative +2 AC and Bulwark already at lvl 4 and for no extra feat cost, if Earth. If wood/metal, +1 and free shield-block on a free shield with some scaling.
* You can spend the action to activate the armor outside of combat. With Light Armor proficiency, you're also safer when its not up.
* Presumably some impulse would be desirable to spend actions on when not spellcasting. (Edit: Or not)
* The dedication feat is less demanding than Monk, and gives a bonus skill-proficiency compared to Martial Artist.
* (This general build also frees up your attributes to almost whatever you want. You need Int and +2 Con. You have a good reason to invest in strength, to avoid the movement and skill penalty - but as you're only taking the penalty when the impulse is active, you can avoid the penalty for the out-of-combat climb-check or in combats where you know you'll need mobility. While there's not much reason to not put that fourth attribute-boost to either strength or dexterity, the Kinetic-armored Wizard provides a rare opportunity to invest in Int and Cha without as substantial downsides.)
* Different vibes, if that's a benefit. Dwarf happens to have excellent attribute boosts and the perfect thematic fit for Armored in Earth, so I struggle to see the dwarven stone-attuned Wizard could not be appealing.

Downsides:
* Eats a general feat for light armour proficiency.
* Elemental Blast doesn't scale for free and isn't worth the cost - you won't be dealing damage from this.
* Less mobility when active if Earth and dumped strength.
* Different vibes, assuming that's a downside.
* There might not be any specific impulses you want. (Edit: In fact, this is quite likely. If you want the best armor-impulse for a Wizard, Earth's, you're stuck with other impulses that aren't the best for a Wizard. There's no other 1-4th level 1-action impulse that's generally useful in combat. Calcifying Sand provides a good reaction, but like the two-action combat impulses it suffers from your lower Archetype proficiency. Wood and Metal seems to both offer an aura with some defensive benefits as their best option. So you're still looking at Athletics to fill out the third action when spell-casting)

Could one spend those Archetype Feats on something else, and still have comparable benefits just from Armor Proficiency, Attribute investment and some other trick to spend your actions? Yes.
Is it mechanically better than Mountain Stance? Almost strictly better.
Is it better for you than Mountain Stance? That's up to you - I mostly posted this for future readers to consider if they stumble on this thread with a similar idea in mind, but if I've helped you that's great!

[SuperBidi]

Bluemagetim wrote:

the only difference would be having the ability to better survive a melee enemy closing in for a round

From your selection of spells, I thought you were not doing Wizard stuff (there are mostly buffs in there). I'd change my spells, personally, to do Wizard stuff. To take Deriven's expression, I don't find they are "high value spells".

Bluemagetim wrote:

How much does a wizard need to invest in spell casting feats before level 10 was the thought (along with would experimental shapeshifting cover it), what else could I do with those feats.

The only feats I see that are really interesting are Conceal Spell, Spell Penetration and Quicken Casting. It leaves a lot of space for Moutain Stance and the following feats.

But, I must admit, I rarely take feats from my class unless I play an Alchemist or Swashbuckler (the few classes that are not really playable without their feats).