Correct me if I'm wrong - Blindsense / Blindsight

[Toshy]

First if all, if you are one of my players, leave this post, you dont want to spoiler yourself.

I'm planning an adventure (or maybe a whole campaign) around Hive-Creatures and want to make sure I understand their senses and related mechanics correctly.

So, correct me if I got anything wrong.

Example Creature: Hive Warrior

Things I want to clarify:

Blind:

A hive creature is blind. It is immune to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. Unlike other aberrations, a hive creature doesn’t have darkvision.

Blindsight:

Some creatures possess blindsight, the extraordinary ability to use a nonvisual sense (or a combination of senses) to operate effectively without vision. Such senses may include sensitivity to vibrations, acute scent, keen hearing, or echolocation. This makes invisibility and concealment (even magical darkness) irrelevant to the creature (though it still can’t see ethereal creatures). This ability operates out to a range specified in the creature description.
- Blindsight never allows a creature to distinguish color or visual contrast. A creature cannot read with blindsight.
- Blindsight does not subject a creature to gaze attacks (even though darkvision does).
- Blinding attacks do not penalize creatures that use blindsight.
- Deafening attacks thwart blindsight if it relies on hearing.
- Blindsight works underwater but not in a vacuum.
Blindsight negates displacement and blur effects.

Blindsense:

Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

The Hive Warrior has 10ft Blindsight and 60ft Blindsense.

Within it's 10ft Blindsight, the creature can notice and pinpoint visible, concealed and invisible foes without restrictions, so the AC includes the DEX-Bonus and it can attack without penalties.

How about the 60ft blindsense?
I'm a bit confused about the wording here:

Quote:

an opponent that can't be seen, has total concealment

Quote:

A creature with blindsense is still denied its DEX-Bonus to AC against attacks from creatures it cannot see

Which if the following is the correct interpretation:

Option A:

The creature is blind so it can not see anything beyond its 10ft blindsight. Within its 60ft Blindsense it knows an enemy is there and can locate and attack it but the enemy still has otal concealment, so all attacks of the creature have their miss-chance (the warriors ranged acid spit, and for example a hive queen would have reach of 15ft and 20ft with her tail) and the creature has no DEX-Bonus to AC against attacks from more than 10ft away. This would allow a rogue within 60ft but outside of 10ft to automatically sneak attack (with reach greater 10ft or ranged attacks)

Option B:

"See" is meant to be read as "sense". The creature can sense anything within 60ft, so no total concealment for enemies and full DEX-Bonus to AC against attacks within 60ft and with line of effect. Outside of 60ft however enemies have total concealment and the creature has no DEX-Bonus against attacks from further away than 60ft. So if one would theoretically able to sneak attack from further than 60ft away, you would be automatically be able to do so.

Sorry if that's a dumb question, but I want to make sure to play them right.
Thanks for all answers in advance.

[Diego Rossi]

A is correct.

Quote:

Blindsense:
Any opponent that cannot be seen has total concealment (50% miss chance) against a creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.

You are correct that "see" is used as "sense", but to "see" someone/something with your "sense" you need Blindsight. "Seeing" a target with a different sense is exactly what it does.

Blindsense instead allows it to perceive the presence of a creature, but not "see" it.

[DeathlessOne]

I believe your "Option A" is the correct interpretation. However, keep in mind that Sneak Attacks can only occur within 30ft with a ranged attack unless some other kind of ability, feature, or effect allows for greater range.

Some things that constantly surprise me is why bother having a creature with a 'sense' ability (tremor, blind, whatever) and not give them blind-fighting as a bonus feat?

[Belafon]

A is correct. You can consider the difference to be that blindsight is a "precise" sense while blindsense is "imprecise." To use Starfinder's terminology:

Quote:

Imprecise senses allow a creature to perceive certain details and clues about the world, but these are not sufficient for the creature to make out nuanced detail the way a human’s sight does.

So the Hive creature would know that there is some kind of creature in a square 50' away. Even if the creature is invisible. But it can't tell exactly where the the appendages of the creature are or what the creature is doing. Making silent spellcasting gestures? Drawing a weapon? Playing air guitar?

Once it gets within 10' it's just like normal human vision (except it can also see in darkness, fog, through invisibility, etc.)

Hive creatures are (in my opinion) misleadingly CR'ed. When you encounter them in their traditional narrative environment - a large group of them in a tight, confined, twisty labyrinth - then they are about right. But way too easy to deal with if you come across some in the open.

[Belafon]

DeathlessOne wrote:

Some things that constantly surprise me is why bother having a creature with a 'sense' ability (tremor, blind, whatever) and not give them blind-fighting as a bonus feat?

It's from Horror Adventures. The archetypical hive creature - from movies or literature - is terrifying because of its size and numbers, not because of it's fighting prowess. Usually the heroes smash several of them before the sheer mass of creatures picks off one or two of the group and the rest escape.

When an author is designing a creature they are usually trying to depict a theme, not to make the best combatant possible.

[Toshy]

Ok, so just to ne clear:

The Hive Queen has a melee reach of 15ft (20ft with her tail slap). Since her blindSIGHT is still only 10ft, she would have a 50% chance to miss with her melee reach attacks against targets further away than 10ft, correct?
Seems a bit odd for me...

I was considering changing the hives lore a bit. I was considering having an intelligent individual inflicted with the Hive disease to try and use the Hive as an personal army (something like Kerrigan and the Zerg).

Instead of changing every infested creature in Hive warriors I thought of instead infesting them to the original creature with the Hive template.

But if their full potential only works in confined, maze-like areas I might have to change some things.

[Pizza Lord]

Toshy wrote:

But if their full potential only works in confined, maze-like areas I might have to change some things.

Your question was answered, and yes, the Hive Queen would have a miss chance for total concealment against targets beyond 10 feet. One answer is to change one of their feats (or advance their HD) to access Blind-Fight to mitigate it. It won't remove the problem, but will give a second concealment roll.

Or you could just tweak their Hive Mind ability by allowing them to also be able to 'see' any creature that is within 10 ft of another hive creature (in their line of sight, since they need that to communicate).

You could even just give this modified ability to the hive queen if you want, as a unique buff. That way, if there's a hive warrior or drone within 10 feet of a target, even if it's out of her blindsight, it counts as 'seen' to her. It would keep the drones at their written power level and just boost her efficiency.

[Toshy]

Pizza Lord wrote:

Or you could just tweak their Hive Mind ability by allowing them to also be able to 'see' any creature that is within 10 ft of another hive creature (in their line of sight, since they need that to communicate).

You could even just give this modified ability to the hive queen if you want, as a unique buff. That way, if there's a hive warrior or drone within 10 feet of a target, even if it's out of her blindsight, it count as 'seen'.

That seems like a good workaround for me.

Maybe not to every drone and warrior, but to the "more evolved" hive creatures like the queen and maybe some infested creatures with the Hive template.

But since anything from here on would be more advice than rule question, I'll take the answers and work on from here.

Thanks for all contributions.

[Azothath]

for the Hive Warrior creature that is the RAW model (and I wish they would have used a different name, "hive"... ahh well).
Perception in PF1 is a combo of all the senses.
Belafon is correct that blindsense is imprecise for targeting as where blindsight is precise. Imprecise is good for the square but suffers miss chance/concealment for the target but lets the perceiver know something is there. Luckily fireballing squares still works as usual.
The good news is that spells that cause blindness do not work on blindsight & blindsense{corollary}.
=====
since you're hombrewing, Vermiseffodi Helminth swarm CR:3

[outshyn]

I would just create a "Better Blindsight" feat that extends existing Blindsight by 10 feet more, and give it a prereq of "Blindsight and 10+ HD" so that only tougher monsters who already have Blindsight can take it. I might make a note that you can only take the feat once, so that monsters aren't taking it 10x to get absurd Blindsight ranges. Then I'd drop one of the Hive Queen's feats and put that in its place.

[I grok do u]

Azothath wrote:

for the Hive Warrior creature that is the RAW model (and I wish they would have used a different name, "hive"... ahh well).

Well, one of the key inspirations was owned by a certain timeframe vulpine. Guess, they are even luckier now that they stayed generic, as the new mouse owner is known to be even more litigious...