Champion Mercy - Does it Counteract Afflictions?

[Alwaysafk]

In PC2 Mercy got a few new tricks, allowing it to counteract a whole bunch of conditions. It very notably is missing the line that would limit it from counteracting afflictions that cause the conditions like Sure Footing or the new Alchemist feat Invigorating Elixir.

Is this intentional? Can Mercy counteract a disease that imposes both Clumsy and Stupified?

There's the lvl 12 feat, Affliction Mercy, that specifically calls out counteraction afflictions instead of effects causing a condition. Is Mercy also being able to counteract some afflictions stepping on the design toes of a higher level feat?

[Baarogue]

Sure Footing has the wording restricting it from counteracting afflictions because it doesn't counteract conditions, it counteracts an effect that causes a condition. Invigorating Elixir does the same

The Mercy feats don't say they counteract effects that cause conditions, only the conditions themselves. I read Affliction Mercy's "instead of effects" to mean it counteracts afflictions, but not OTHER effects (like spells) causing a condition

I'd guess this wording was probably because some earlier version of the new consolidated Mercy feats (there were 6 between the CRB and APG in 2e; I count 4 in PC2) did counteract effects causing a condition, like the original 2e Mercy did for effects that caused the fear or paralyzed conditions

[Snake0202]

Baarogue wrote:

Sure Footing has the wording restricting it from counteracting afflictions because it doesn't counteract conditions, it counteracts an effect that causes a condition. Invigorating Elixir does the same

The Mercy feats don't say they counteract effects that cause conditions, only the conditions themselves. I read Affliction Mercy's "instead of effects" to mean it counteracts afflictions, but not OTHER effects (like spells) causing a condition

I'd guess this wording was probably because some earlier version of the new consolidated Mercy feats (there were 6 between the CRB and APG in 2e; I count 4 in PC2) did counteract effects causing a condition, like the original 2e Mercy did for effects that caused the fear or paralyzed conditions

So if the condition is coming from an affliction the level 4 mercy feats would not counteract it, but if the condition is coming from something else.. (spell, hazard effect, monster ability effect,) then the level 4 mercy feat would counteract it? Is that what you're saying?

[Finoan]

I would think that Mercy or Treat Condition or other such things - ones that don't mention dealing with the entire affliction - can suppress the condition that they are treating, but it will be reapplied the next time the affliction changes stages.

Also, we know that some things from Champion were cut from PC2 because of space constraints. The Litany feats being the one that has a book that they are scheduled to return in. So if a Champion player of mine wants to take Affliction Mercy at level 12, I would probably let them.

[Baarogue]

Snake0202 wrote:

Baarogue wrote:

Sure Footing has the wording restricting it from counteracting afflictions because it doesn't counteract conditions, it counteracts an effect that causes a condition. Invigorating Elixir does the same

The Mercy feats don't say they counteract effects that cause conditions, only the conditions themselves. I read Affliction Mercy's "instead of effects" to mean it counteracts afflictions, but not OTHER effects (like spells) causing a condition

I'd guess this wording was probably because some earlier version of the new consolidated Mercy feats (there were 6 between the CRB and APG in 2e; I count 4 in PC2) did counteract effects causing a condition, like the original 2e Mercy did for effects that caused the fear or paralyzed conditions

So if the condition is coming from an affliction the level 4 mercy feats would not counteract it, but if the condition is coming from something else.. (spell, hazard effect, monster ability effect,) then the level 4 mercy feat would counteract it? Is that what you're saying?

No, Mercy would be able to counteract any condition in its list, but not the effects causing them whether they were afflictions or not, unless you have the Affliction Mercy feat in which case you can counteract the affliction directly. The APG versions of the Mercy feats that allowed this had this wording

legacy Invigorating Mercy wrote:

Your divine touch rejuvenates the weak and tired. When you use Mercy, you can instead attempt a counteract check to remove the clumsy or enfeebled conditions, using the source of that condition to determine the counteract level and DC. If the condition was caused by an ongoing effect and you don't remove that effect, the condition returns at the end of your next turn.

legacy Elucidating Mercy wrote:

Your mercy grants clarity to those around you just when they need it most. When you use Mercy, you can instead attempt a counteract check to remove the confused or stupefied conditions, using the source of that condition to determine the counteract level and DC. If the condition was caused by an ongoing effect and you don't remove that effect, the condition returns at the end of your next turn.

Note the guidance on where to get the counteract DC, and if you don't remove the effect causing the condition, which PC2 lacks

And now the old Affliction Mercy from CRB

legacy Affliction Mercy wrote:

The divine grace that flows through you grants reprieve from an affliction. When you use Mercy, you can instead attempt to counteract a curse, disease, or poison.

Note the lack of the vestigial sentence present in PC2, which is what led me to believe the PC2 version was building on something in an early draft of the new, consolidated Mercy feats that isn't there any more

@Finoan, Affliction Mercy is in PC2 at level 12 and the 6 Mercy feats from CRB and APG have been consolidated into 4. I don't believe anything Mercy could do before remaster is missing

[Alwaysafk]

I read Affliction Mercy's "instead of effects" as a clarification on Mercy, like the line was missed in Mercy. It seems like it makes more sense with the previous guidance being removed.

Why include "instead of effects "causing conditions when Affliction Mercy doesn't interact with conditions at all?

Affliction Mercy:
"...Add mercy of recuperation to the types of mercy you
can provide, allowing you to counteract an affliction instead of
an effect causing a condition"

Which makes Mercy have the following options:
Mercy of Body
Mercy of Grace
Mercy of Mind
Mercy of Recuperation

And now Mercy of Recuperation
"allowing you to counteract an affliction *instead of an effect causing a condition*" which all the other Mercy options do.

Mercy should remove effects causing conditions.

[Snake0202]

Okay… so the consensus is the the 4th level mercy feat counteracts the condition, but the affliction remains. So if it’s clumsy 1 for 1 week disease and on day 1 you mercy counteract the clumsy 1, you don’t have any effect of the disease for the next 6 days, but then after a week passes you make your save against the disease and if you fail you get the stage 2 effects?

Is that right?

[Baarogue]

> Mercy should remove effects causing conditions.
I suspect that it might have done so in an early draft of the new Mercy, but that didn't make it to print so for now it does not

Snake0202 wrote:

Okay… so the consensus is the the 4th level mercy feat counteracts the condition, but the affliction remains. So if it’s clumsy 1 for 1 week disease and on day 1 you mercy counteract the clumsy 1, you don’t have any effect of the disease for the next 6 days, but then after a week passes you make your save against the disease and if you fail you get the stage 2 effects?

Is that right?

yes, that sounds right since there isn't the guidance to return the condition on your next turn if you don't remove the effect like there was in the APG, unless that guidance exists in the general rules for effects that cause conditions now and I just haven't seen it yet

[Alwaysafk]

>but that didn't make it to print so for now it does not

It made it to print in Affliction Mercy though.

I think the most RAW interpretation is Mercy doesn't apply to effects causing conditions unless the character takes Affliction Mercy at which point it does.

Hopefully we get it touched on in the PC2 errata and clarifications. Without the previous guidance we're kinda stuck. Expect table variance?