Spellstrike and Touch Spells--Do I Understand This?

[BelacRLJ]

Below is my understanding of the various options/quirks of casting touch spells and spellstrike. Please let me know anything I'm getting wrong.

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Calvin the Cleric, Sam the Sacred Fist, and Oliver the Ascetic Oracle (who has Martial Disciple and Oracular Spellstrike), all of whom are 8th level with +6/+1 BAB, decide to have a contest in delivering touch spells, starting 30 feet from the opponent.

Round 1:

Calvin casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and makes the touch attack. He misses.

Sam casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and makes the touch attack. He misses.

Oliver casts Inflict Light Wounds, advances 30 feet, and, since he has Oracular Spellstrike, has the choice between making a touch attack or an unarmed strike against full AC. Either way, he misses.

All of them end the round holding their charge.

Round 2:

Calvin has the choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (drawing AoOs for each). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.

Sam has he choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (which won't draw AoOs as he has Improved Unarmed Strike). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.

Oliver has the same choices as Sam for the same reasons. Spellstrike is irrelevant.

All of them successfully discharge the spell.

Round 3:

Calvin can cast defensively and then make a free action touch attack to deliver another Inflict Light Wounds.

Sam has the same options as Calvin. Since he doesn't have Spellstrike and isn't already holding the charge, he can't make an unarmed strike against full AC.

Oliver, having cast defensively, again has the choice between the same move as Calvin and Sam or, since he has Spellstrike, making a single unarmed strike against full AC. He cannot full attack as part of this since he does not have Spell Combat.

Let's say they all do this and again miss.

Then the target gets tired of waiting and runs away, provoking an AoO. They all take the AoO against full AC with their charged spell hand (Calvin doesn't provoke an AoO himself since the hand counts as armed), hit, and the spell discharges. (None of them could have made an AoO as a touch attack since the touch attack requires a standard action).

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Am I missing any options for any of them, or did I give any of them options they shouldn't have? Particularly involving the AoO.

[Azothath]

you can search the Rules Forum for posts on Magus's Spell Combat(Ex) and Spellstrike(Su). It is a bit confusing as newbies always have questions on how does it work.

Actions in Combat on AoN.

How does spell combat work, 2022-07 thread

[BelacRLJ]

Azothath wrote:

you can search the Rules Forum for posts on Magus's Spell Combat(Ex) and Spellstrike(Su). It is a bit confusing as newbies always have questions on how does it work.

Actions in Combat on AoN.

How does spell combat work, 2022-07 thread

I specifically excluded Spell Combat as I wanted to understand Spellstrike separately. Most Spellstrike question/answers I've found, including the one your link to, focus on spells that allow multiple touches, and on the interactions with Spell Combat, which is specifically not what my question is on.

It seems to me that Oracular Spellstrike doesn't add much relative to Improved Unarmed Strike (I.E. that in my example Sam is stronger relative to Calvin than Oliver is relative to Sam). But I may be missing something about the advantages of Spellstrike on its own.

[zza ni]

some points:

1.
'Calvin has the choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (drawing AoOs for each). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.'

Attacking with a charged spell is considered threatening enough to be 'armed' and does not provoke aoo. (in combat section under '"armed" unarmed attacks')

2.
'Then the target gets tired of waiting and runs away, provoking an AoO. They all take the AoO against full AC with their charged spell hand (Calvin doesn't provoke an AoO himself since the hand counts as armed), hit, and the spell discharges. (None of them could have made an AoO as a touch attack since the touch attack requires a standard action).'

Again in the combat section>actions>unarmed attacks>"armed" unarmed attacks", right after talking about how touch attacks and monsters with natural attacks ARE considered armed there is note that say:
"Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)."

it doesn't specify that the caster need to make a normal unarmed attack vs the full ac of the target which seem to imply he can use the touch attack vs touch ac of the target as an AoO.

3.
In general adding a touch attack to an unarmed strike\natural weapon (up in combat section in the 'cast a spell' section) is something every caster can do and doesn't require spell combat.
Spell combat is effective when the charge is delivered with other weapons.
(Also note that in the same section it talk about how touching anyone or anything with the charged hand even unintentually discharge the spell, which mean one can also do other things, such as grappling, to deliver the spell. A grapple without the right feats might still provoke AoO though, as even a monk would provoke without the improved grapple feat etc)

[Pizza Lord]

zza ni wrote:

some points:

1.
'Calvin has the choice between making a standard action touch attack, or two unarmed strikes against full AC (drawing AoOs for each). The first attack that hits discharges the spell.'

Attacking with a charged spell is considered threatening enough to be 'armed' and does not provoke aoo. (in combat section under '"armed" unarmed attacks')

When attacking to do damage in addition to triggering the touch spell, your attacks do provoke (if the attack itself would). In this case, Calvin has no ability to make his unarmed attack count as armed, so what OP said is correct. Both the unarmed attacks would provoke if he tried to do unarmed damage and inflict light wounds.

Combat > Touch Spells > Holding the Charge wrote:

Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack

[bbangerter]

zza ni wrote:

Spell combatSpellstrike is effective when the charge is delivered with other weapons.

Spell Combat is for when a magus wants to make a full attack and also cast a non-quickened spell.

[Azothath]

Figure out the attacks first (and Std{assumed} or Full actn);
Calvin the Cleric 8: BAB:+6,+1, no Str or Dex mod.
 Touch +6 (none), US +6 (1d3 c20 *2 B)nL & pvk.
Sam the Warpriest-Sacred Fist 8: BAB:+6,+1, no Str or Dex mod.
 Touch +6 (none), US +6 (1d10 c20 *2 B)nL & pvk, IUS{no mfg wpn} +6 (1d10), Flurry(Full)IUS +4,+4,-1,-1 (1d10).
Oliver the Oracle(Mystr:Ascetic) 8: BAB:+6,+1, no Str or Dex mod. Abil: Martial Disciple(IUS, monk=orcl+monk for dmg), Oracular Spellstrike@7(spellstrike with IUS/US).
 Touch +6 (none), US +6 (1d10 c20 *2 B)nL & pvk, IUS{no mfg wpn} +6 (1d10).
 "{no mfg wpn}" is there so you know it's just IUS body strike damage. "nL" is nonlethal. "pvk" is provoke AoO.

now you can choose which Std or Full attack to use spellstrike (on highest bonus attack). US, IUS, and mfg wpn count as a melee weapon for spellstrike. Rather than cast & touch it is cast & melee attack with possible enhc/wpn bonuses and wpn damage AND then the spell (if you miss then no dmg, no spell efct & now holding spell). Notice that casting still provokes so for action economy AND avoiding provoking it is wiser to use a spell with continuing touches otherwise you will be casting defensively a lot.

In your example
Round 1: Calvin & Sam move to Oliver in a missing slapfest. Now everybody might threaten everyone as no 3 combatants can all move 30ft and attack a valid target (creature) without provoking from someone, so it's easier to assume Oliver just wastes his move action and 5ft steps to avoid being flanked by Calvin & Sam (or some such close/adjacent situation). You might have included 3 target dummies for each.
Round 2: Without (natural, mfg or IUS) weapons creatures don't threaten and can't make AoOs. Options still require spellstrike to do damage AND the spell, otherwise it is a simple touch attack for spell effect only. They all discharge the spell.
Round 3: again, it's about threaten, making AoOs, casting defensively, US vs touch atks (no wpn dmg) & spellstrikes (with wpn dmg).

[Azothath]

commentary
as far as which of Calvin, Sam, or Oliver is "stronger", it is more complicated.
It is clear once you enumerate the attack sequences who will be more effective with spellstrike and close combat. For simple std actn touch attacks they are all identical.
In a practical manner attacking within melee range is detrimental to the health and longevity of spellcasters. A class spell list determines what options a caster has and his effectiveness with touch spells more than BAB or weapon damage. I'd review spectral hand spell.

Spellstrike & Spell Combat are best used with a magical weapon rather than IUS or Natural attack. The latter have problems getting the same enhancement bonuses.