I do not recall the divine list having the fly spell in PF2 before the Remaster.
Fly is listed on the Divine list now on Archives. Is that accurate?
What other spells expanded to other lists in the Remaster? I can see Divine having fly, but I was surprised when I hit level 7 and fly was available for a divine caster as I was used to having to use air walk for a divine caster.
I do not recall the divine list having the fly spell in PF2 before the Remaster.
Your memory is correct. Fly wasn't on the divine lost before the remaster.
Fly is listed on the Divine list now on Archives. Is that accurate?
PC1 lists fly as being part of all four traditions.
What other spells expanded to other lists in the Remaster? I can see Divine having fly, but I was surprised when I hit level 7 and fly was available for a divine caster as I was used to having to use air walk for a divine caster.
I notice that Air Walk isn't listed in PC1. With fly now being available to all caster traditions, air walk seems kind of redundant.
I notice that Air Walk isn't listed in PC1. With fly now being available to all caster traditions, air walk seems kind of redundant.
Same observation, but rather from a different direction. I took it that "Air Walk" came into the sights for having its D&D-esque name, and was replaced on all lists by Fly. Not to say that the dev team couldn't have come up with a DRM-free version of a walking on air spell, but as you say, it was kind of redundant when you could just give everyone the Fly spell.
(That said, I might actually kind of miss Air Walk--being able to just stand in the air with no action cost had its utility, and my party's monk definitely enjoyed the fact that she could apply all her land speed tricks while in the air because she wasn't technically flying)
I think Paizo found no reason to partition Air Walk from Fly so put them under the same umbrella for simplification/consistency. Other than being a riff on Water Walk (who cares about that?), I don't see such a reason either, especially given how ubiquitous flight is in tales of divine entities.
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I took it that "Air Walk" came into the sights for having its D&D-esque name, and was replaced on all lists by Fly.
Quite possible. But they also seem to have used the remaster as a chance to streamline the spell lists a bit using various means (consolidating light and dancing lights, for example). Replacing air walk with fly would serve both purposes.
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Air Walk wasn't added to remaster, maybe can reappear in PC2 maybe it was removed to prevent license problems or lack of space.
Probably thats the main reason that Fly goes to all traditions to prevent those who have PC1 only becomes without a fly spell in divine tradition.
Other thing that was shared between traditions was the remove condition spells.
In Legacy only divine tradition have all remove condition spells. Primal lacks from mental and spiritual condition recovery while occult lacks from physical recovery spells. So there's no remove disease for occult tradition and there's no remove curse for primal tradition.
Now in remaster all non-arcane tradition got all remove condition spells. Clear Mind, sound body, sure footing and cleanse affliction are all available for divine, occult and primal traditions.
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Mystic Armor is another. It was only arcane and occult and now it is on all the lists.
Interesting. I imagine it simplified the changes to the spell lists to eliminate legacy names like air walk or mage armor.
Mystic Armor is another. It was only arcane and occult and now it is on all the lists.
Same for Magic Weapon. Primal didn't have access to it and it was limited to +1 Striking effect only.
In remaster it was changed to Runic Weapon that's available to all traditions and can be heightened up to +3 Major Striking rune effect.
Same for Magic Fang that was Primal only and was changed for Runic Body that's all traditions available and has the same heightened effects that Runic Weapon have.
A few spells being on every spell list instead of 2 or 3 is hardly a dent on arcane. Arcane had a net gain of spells from Remaster too.
Arcane's distinction is having the most spells. It still has over 600 spells on its list and over 100 more than the runner up Occult list. If we define unique as the number of spells only on the arcane list, arcane actually has always had the fewest unique spells and lost the fewest unique spells to other spell lists. The primal list is the one with the most unique spells and lost the most unique spells.
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Dominate was added to the Divine list.
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Wall of Thorns and Entangling Flora (former Entangle) are new additions on the arcane spell list.
The "new" Revealing Light replaces Glitterdust and Fearie Fire and is also available for all four traditions. I think the new version is stronger than either of its predecessors, so it's an overall upgrade for all traditions.
Noise Blast (Sound Burst) is also new on the arcane list.
Wall of Thorns and Entangling Flora (former Entangle) are new additions on the arcane spell list.
The "new" Revealing Light replaces Glitterdust and Fearie Fire and is also available for all four traditions. I think the new version is stronger than either of its predecessors, so it's an overall upgrade for all traditions.
Noise Blast (Sound Burst) is also new on the arcane list.
As an added note, Entangling Flora even got a significant buff that makes Web more redundant. Entangle used to only work to enlarge plants in an area that already had plants or fungi, but Entangling Flora just conjures those plants.
Arcane's distinction is having the most spells. It still has over 600 spells on its list and over 100 more than the runner up Occult list.
And not just the most spells, but it also tends to have some of the best spells in all the categories where it overlaps with someone else.
Arcane has almost all of the best blasting and control options from Primal. Arcane has almost all of the best debuffing options from both Primal and Occult, and a nice chunk of Occult's buffing options. Primal has blasts and control but strongly lags behind in debuffing and severely lags behind in buffing, Occult has top notch debuffing and buffing but strongly lags behind in the other two categories.
Arcane's strength is having more spells than anyone else and, aside from lacking healing/restoration magic entirely, being tied for first place or second place by a small margin in nearly every relevant category.
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I do not recall the divine list having the fly spell in PF2 before the Remaster.
Fly is listed on the Divine list now on Archives. Is that accurate?
What other spells expanded to other lists in the Remaster? I can see Divine having fly, but I was surprised when I hit bylevel 7 and fly was available for a divine caster as I was used to having to use air walk for a divine caster.
To be fair, Air Walk is the superior combat spell anyway, since you don't have to spend actions each turn to maintain it, and you can't be knocked straight to the ground from it. And if you get knocked unconscious, you won't take an additional Dying from falling damage either.
It appears the Divine list got nerfed as a side effect of putting the spell under the same umbrella, which is a shame, because outside of the Heal spell and maybe the Restoration line of spells, the Divine list didn't have much else going for it, this being one of the few things that did.
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The only missing spells that are really hurting the arcane list are the power word spells. I don’t think we’ll get them back, but the one action good debuffs and damage with no save are heavy hitters to just be gone.
I rate the lists more by impact spells than size.
Best Buffs in the game: Heroism, haste, enlarge, foresight, true target
Best debuffs: Synesthesia, slow, vision of death, Wails of the Damned
Some of the best blast: Chain Lightning, Eclipse Burst, Sunburst for undead, Banishment (I look at this as a blast spell as it takes something out when it works and at high level it is pretty insane), fireball.
Good utility: Magic Passage, Teleport, Fly, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Invisibility (all forms), Clairvoyance, Proliferating Eyes, Charm, Mind Reading.
Best heals: Heal 2 action, Moment of Renewal, Soothe, Regenerate
Those are some of the spells I look for on the spell list off the top of my head. There are plenty more, though with limited spell slots hard to grab everything you like even when you can cast it 3 or 4 times. If it has a lot of the above spells, then it's good. The more high value spells, the better.
I have learned to like the Power Word spells, even though they are high level. They have good action economy and are effective. I hope they are not gone.
That said, I might actually kind of miss Air Walk--being able to just stand in the air with no action cost had its utility, and my party's monk definitely enjoyed the fact that she could apply all her land speed tricks while in the air because she wasn't technically flyingExactly. Air Walk is not anywhere close to redundant. I fully expect it return (possibly renamed) in PC2. Of course, we can always use the old one, but still. This would not be just simplification or streamlining, this would be an actual loss for the system.
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BTW interesting mentions of other spells: seems that arcane became even less good and unique (in a good sense) than before.
I honestly hope that Air Walk goes away for good!
It just trivializes Fly in most situations, every caster that have both options to take Fly or Air Walk almost always choose for Air Walk (correctly) to not have to deal with fly action and its limits.
I rate the lists more by impact spells than size.
Best Buffs in the game: Heroism, haste, enlarge, foresight, true target
Best debuffs: Synesthesia, slow, vision of death, Wails of the Damned
Some of the best blast: Chain Lightning, Eclipse Burst, Sunburst for undead, Banishment (I look at this as a blast spell as it takes something out when it works and at high level it is pretty insane), fireball.
Good utility: Magic Passage, Teleport, Fly, Wall of Force, Wall of Stone, Invisibility (all forms), Clairvoyance, Proliferating Eyes, Charm, Mind Reading.
Best heals: Heal 2 action, Moment of Renewal, Soothe, Regenerate
Those are some of the spells I look for on the spell list off the top of my head. There are plenty more, though with limited spell slots hard to grab everything you like even when you can cast it 3 or 4 times. If it has a lot of the above spells, then it's good. The more high value spells, the better.
I have learned to like the Power Word spells, even though they are high level. They have good action economy and are effective. I hope they are not gone.
The remastered Bless and Bane are pretty good too. They are very cheap (rank 1 spell) and grant a +1 status/-1 status to your/enemy attacks in AoE. I just don't know why Bless is 15ft aura and Bane a 10ft specially if we consider that Bane also requires a Will check and competes with other status debuffs (what almost means that bless are usually better than bane except when combined with Courageous Anthem or heroism). Why not the opposite? Bane is clearly in a higher difficult effectiveness here when compared to Bless.
I also like Shock to the System. A single spell that resurrects (optional you can use the spell in a live and conscious creature too), heals, make it quickened and allows the target to cast rank 5 Thunderstrike with the caster DC at will. It is fantastic.
Another good buff spell is Girzanje's March that's basically an AoE (30ft) heroism that also gives the same bonus for Fortitude saves, and Will saves against mental effects. The best of this spell is that it Heightens like heroism giving the bonus to everyone at cost of to be sustained.
And a focus spell available for Harrow Sorcerers called Rewrite Possibility that allows the target creature to re-roll any failed check as a reaction. This is fantastically good because it's like a True Strike that works for every roll at cost of a reaction. I saw a Sorcerer giving this buff to a Eldritch Archer and it was brutal.
True. New Bless is nice. Forgot about that. The 15 feet makes it much better.
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I used Rewrite Possibility. Ridiculous focus spell. Probably one of the best focus spells in the game.
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I also like Shock to the System.
This spell is just broken: Just cast it on a Minion and you have a 1-action Thunderstrike 5 every round.
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Arcane's distinction is having the most spells. It still has over 600 spells on its list and over 100 more than the runner up Occult list.
Fat load of good it does anybody, since arcane casters NEVER have access to the complete tradition list, unlike clerics and druids. You either need to pay for them a la carte, or are limited to your repertoire.
Arcane's distinction is having the most spells. It still has over 600 spells on its list and over 100 more than the runner up Occult list.Fat load of good it does anybody, since arcane casters NEVER have access to the complete tradition list, unlike clerics and druids. You either need to pay for them a la carte, or are limited to your repertoire.
First, you can buy Scrolls. So for utility, especially low rank utility, it's golden. Only the Arcane spell list will give you so much solutions to small problems.
Also, even if you definitely can't know all the spells from the Arcane list at a given moment, you can learn any spell from the Arcane list at some given moments. For example, if you absolutely need to prepare Super Niche Spell and you are in a town at that moment you may be able to learn it and prepare it for the next morning. Nearly as good as a Cleric.
I used Rewrite Possibility. Ridiculous focus spell. Probably one of the best focus spells in the game.
It is very useful. About the same as an amped guidance.
I also like Shock to the System.This spell is just broken: Just cast it on a Minion and you have a 1-action Thunderstrike 5 every round.
Yep I'll add that to my notes. But summoned creatures automatically disappear. So a follow on from Final Sacrifice for your brave Animal Companion or Familiar? Ouch.
It is a level 7 spell though...| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yep I'll add that to my notes. But summoned creatures automatically disappear. So a follow on from Final Sacrifice for your brave Animal Companion or Familiar? Ouch.
It is a level 7 spell though...
You don't have to cast it on a creature that just died, you can cast it on a live creature. So first round of combat: Shock to the System + Thunderstrike. And then every round you can Thunderstrike enemies to hell on top of casting a regular spell!
This combo definitely needs to be addressed.
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I also like Shock to the System.This spell is just broken: Just cast it on a Minion and you have a 1-action Thunderstrike 5 every round.
You can go further once that the spell also gives Quickened you can make that Companion that is becoming weaker as you progress useful again. It can Strike/Stride/Step/Fly (if have fly speed) + Rank 5 ThunderStrike.
It's pretty powerful but also requires a good investment. You need to do that heavily feat investment into your Companion to make it useful or cast a 3-action summon spell and then cast a Shock the System that costs a good amount of time into an encounter.
The real broken part of this spell is that nothing prevents you use it on a Pet/Familar! Pets and Familiars are restricted to Strike but not to do attacks, hostile actions or Cast a Spell. So this could allow you get a 1-action rank 5 Thunderstrike with a pretty cheap creature that have the same AC and Saves that you have!
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It's pretty powerful but also requires a good investment. You need to do that heavily feat investment into your Companion
Grabbing a Familiar is trivial, there are many level 1 Ancestry feats giving you one. And as you don't need anything on your pet but just its existence, you can grab Tough as Familiar Ability. And Flyer for the second one so you can also fly above the enemies while blasting them with Thunderstrike!!!!
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I honestly hope that Air Walk goes away for good!
It just trivializes Fly in most situations, every caster that have both options to take Fly or Air Walk almost always choose for Air Walk (correctly) to not have to deal with fly action and its limits.
Well, with that nightmare people suggest in the Flight topic I say PLEASE TRIVIALIZE FLY COMPLETELY, just please-please-please, I beg everyone who listens!
So, no, Air Walk must remain.
And, well, good news is it's not going anywhere. For any reasonable GM which uses old books.
My only problem with Fly is that stupid check of Maneuver in Flight to ascent or descent. It's just a stupid check that forces fly creatures to invest in Acrobatics (once that Trained DC is 15 and when you get a fly speed you probably already have +17 in your Acrobatics) and I just ignore it because it only complicates and slow down unnecessarily.
That said I'm not against the usage of 1-action to keep flighting. Fly speed is very powerful in many situations because not every creature has a ranged attack or fly speed. This helps to balance a bit many situations where you need choose between lost 1-action and stay in a safe position or keep your full-actions but stay in a more risky situation. But Air Walk just break this balance. It have same rank of Fly but allows you to move and keep in air like Bleach's character as if there was an invisible ground at your feet.That's why I hope that this spell goes away for good. But I agree with you. It's unlikely. It's requires that designers not put it again in PC2 and officialize a position of consider all content of CRB and APG as completely substituted by remaster books like they was an errata.
Best debuffs: Synesthesia, slow, vision of death, Wails of the Damned
If Wail of the Damned is on here I'd add Unspeakable Shadow. Effectively a bit better Slow plus Fear, good for bosses (who aren't immune or resistant to emotion, fear, visual, or mental stuff...).
Arcane's distinction is having the most spells. It still has over 600 spells on its list and over 100 more than the runner up Occult list.Fat load of good it does anybody, since arcane casters NEVER have access to the complete tradition list, unlike clerics and druids. You either need to pay for them a la carte, or are limited to your repertoire.
But that takes away an argument for arcane casters being good. That spell list size is a major part of the fallacy of their greatness. Your reason about limited spell ability to use a large spell list combined with the reality of there only being a handful of high impact spells that you should take if you want to perform well makes list size a non-factor in comparting their power.
I used Rewrite Possibility. Ridiculous focus spell. Probably one of the best focus spells in the game.It is very useful. About the same as an amped guidance.
It lasts a minute for one focus point with no sustain.
Yep I'll add that to my notes. But summoned creatures automatically disappear. So a follow on from Final Sacrifice for your brave Animal Companion or Familiar? Ouch.
It is a level 7 spell though...You don't have to cast it on a creature that just died, you can cast it on a live creature. So first round of combat: Shock to the System + Thunderstrike. And then every round you can Thunderstrike enemies to hell on top of casting a regular spell!
This combo definitely needs to be addressed.
That is an interesting use of the spell.
If Wail of the Damned is on here I'd add Unspeakable Shadow. Effectively a bit better Slow plus Fear, good for bosses (who aren't immune or resistant to emotion, fear, visual, or mental stuff...).
Best debuffs: Synesthesia, slow, vision of death, Wails of the Damned
I have not used that one too much. I will have to look at it. I so often use a level 3 slow on bosses as I feel like letting the martials do their thing on the bosses since I get to hammer so hard on the mooks.
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I also like Shock to the System.This spell is just broken: Just cast it on a Minion and you have a 1-action Thunderstrike 5 every round.Yep I'll add that to my notes. But summoned creatures automatically disappear. So a follow on from Final Sacrifice for your brave Animal Companion or Familiar? Ouch.
It is a level 7 spell though...
That's why I name all my companions "Old Yeller".
Why is shock to the system an occult spell? Is the occult tradition really just synonymous with “Somewhat creepy?”
Shock to the System probably isn't arcane because it heals and resurrects. Also call a lightning that resurrects, heals, quicken and make a creature dealing lightning to others aren't creepy enough?
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Connecting to someone with magical defibrillation seems adequately occult. It's all about connections, this one is just a bit more literal
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One of the strengths for a Wizard (or any prepared caster) that I haven't seen listed yet is their ability to prepare any spell they know in any slot they want above minimum spell level. A spontaneous caster only gets one signature spell per level. A level 11 wizard, can decide today to prepare all their 6th level slots with chain lightning and heightened fireballs. Tomorrow, its disintegrate and dispel magic. Next day it's summon dragon....etc.
even if you don't have access to your whole spell list, the spells you do have access to are more flexible (from a day to day standpoint) than a spontaneous spellcaster.
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One of the strengths for a Wizard (or any prepared caster) that I haven't seen listed yet is their ability to prepare any spell they know in any slot they want above minimum spell level. A spontaneous caster only gets one signature spell per level. A level 11 wizard, can decide today to prepare all their 6th level slots with chain lightning and heightened fireballs. Tomorrow, its disintegrate and dispel magic. Next day it's summon dragon....etc.
even if you don't have access to your whole spell list, the spells you do have access to are more flexible (from a day to day standpoint) than a spontaneous spellcaster.
Since most spells don't have heighten effects anyways, one signature spell per level, plus the ability to take them at higher levels if desired, pus the option of picking up the Signature Spell Expansion feat, is more than enough for my needs.
Day to day planning is all well and good for non-adventurers, but more moment by moment versatility is much more worthwhile when most of an adventurer's problems are solved through violence.