So what does the player describe when they are attempting to use grapple on vapor? I grab onto the....
See, it falls apart at describing and so its not a possible action that can be taken.
I mean, it's the EXACT same way you describe how an Elemental Hurricane can grab you. It's... LITERALLY made of air but has the ability to use Athletics. Even though it's less than vapor and amorphous. And how do you describe how you run JUST as fast as normal as a cloud of vapor? How do you describe how you can burrow just as fast as normal as a cloud? Or how fast your merfolk cloud can swim? Or how a cactus leshy's Defensive Needles still damages someone that unarmed attacks them? Or how a leshy can still use Spore Cloud? or how you can speak and sing as a cloud? or...
IMO, it 'falls apart' no matter HOW you describe it so you fall back on what it actually says. It's not a battle form so everything is kept outside what is specifically altered. To be how you want it AND make sense, the entire spell needs reworks as a battleform.
So what does the player describe when they are attempting to use grapple on vapor? I grab onto the....
See, it falls apart at describing and so its not a possible action that can be taken.I mean, it's the EXACT same way you describe how an Elemental Hurricane can grab you. It's... LITERALLY made of air but has the ability to use Athletics. Even though it's less than vapor and amorphous. And how do you describe how you run JUST as fast as normal as a cloud of vapor? How do you describe how you can burrow just as fast as normal as a cloud? Or how fast your merfolk cloud can swim? Or how a cactus leshy's Defensive Needles still damages someone that unarmed attacks them? Or how a leshy can still use Spore Cloud? or how you can speak and sing as a cloud? or...
IMO, it 'falls apart' no matter HOW you describe it so you fall back on what it actually says. It's not a battle form so everything is kept outside what is specifically altered. To be how you want it AND make sense, the entire spell needs reworks as a battleform.
You got me thinking of how i would describe an elemental hurricane grabbing a player.
The elemental whirlwind goes for a grapple action against you attempting to capture you in its swirling vortex. It rolled athletics and it was a success. The suction from the creatures winds proved too much to pull away from. Its holding you in place putting the grabbed condition in you.
It does half of what is advertised, which, as you've been arguing, has been the point of contention brought up in the thread.How is it not as advertised? It turns you into an amorphous vaporous state. Elemental Hurricane, for instance, is a creature made of air that has an athletics skill meaning it can interact and be interacted with even though it has a similar state. What is actually granted what is advertised. The first few sentences and/or name of feats/spells/ect can often give the wrong impression of what you get; for instance flying kick in fact doesn't have to be a kick.
If you turn yourself into a vapor, and not even anything that resembles a creature (such as an air elemental), then the idea that you can be grabbed is about as absurd as being able to grapple mist from the rain, because that is basically what the spell turns you into.I don't see where it alters your basic default shape and if you were actually like rain then you wouldn't be damaged by physical attacks: you still have a cohesive physical form even if you can pour it through cracks when you move. [you also have enough physical form that you retain your land movement: you aren't just a floating cloud] NOTHING in the spell makes me think 'this was meant to be a spell to escape grapples!' If that was the case, I'd expect it would actually mention athletics, escapes or grapples.
It's a common escape tactic of creatures like Vampires and such, transforming into a misty form and escaping to their coffin when they are out and about and are being attacked by would-be adventurers.Nothing stops this though. It's an escape spell not a combat spell, and any SMART vampire would plan to use it in an area with small holes and such that they can escape through and most enemies wouldn't: I don't think 'break out of grapple' is an expected part of that as vampires aren't exactly bad at athletics or grapples. I think most...
It is because the air elemental can interact with creatures as a physical entity that it can do this. Vapor Form disallows this, which kind of aids itself into that ideal, because if it doesn't, you could never escape a grab while the spell is active, meaning the idea to use it to escape a grapple, which makes logical sense, fails as a concept mechanically, hence the arguing for it being a problematic rule. Just as well, air elementals also can't move through walls and such like the spell can, so mechanically speaking, equating them to be able to do the same thing doesn't track. Also, the argument of "it's descriptive text" doesn't work for the same reason you cannot Doctor's Visitation yourself. I would also contest that you could make a non-Kick Strike with the Flying Kick feat, but those debates are for another thread.
Literally, the first two lines in the description says "The target transforms into a vaporous state. In this state, the target is amorphous." It also has the Polymorph trait, which is stated to "transform the target into a new form." So saying it doesn't actually change your form when you have two separate points that expressly state your form changes, it's quite contradictory. As for the whole "can't be damaged" argument, that is kind of what the Resistance is meant to imply, that it is harder to damage you as a result of your new form. It also makes more sense that you can hit and swing at mist compared to grabbing it.
I mean, it's a pretty common trope that a vampire hunter would grab a vampire and stab them in the heart with a wooden stake. To suggest they can still do this even when a vampire enters its mist form is absurd. Also, your own argument undermines your whole premise of a "smart location" to use it, because once you are grabbed, it's over. The ideal setting for the spell is irrelevant once close quarters combat begins and equally smart players know what tactics to use against them. All it takes is one recall knowledge check, and the vampire can't escape.
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But if an option is bad and/or useless, no one will want it. How many people clamored to take Eschew Materials? It seems like a DM might want to houserule it with rule 1 if they wish to make it desirable vs it being problematic issue. IMO TBTBT just doesn't fall under it and would be a simple houserule: if you remove Vapor Form from the game, the game still runs perfectly so to me it doesn't seem problematic, and neither does letting it in as is.
In terms of my actual experience, it's almost always people who didn't realise that it might be non-functional - I do agree if there's an obvious, unambiguously useless feat it typically just gets neglected. For the Leshy Glide discussion happening elsewhere on the forums, if I had a player take the feat because they thought it would be cool to be able to glide down the cliffs in the part of the campaign we're in and then I told them it actually doesn't function because you fall instantly, that would be a repercussion that causes a problem at my table, and I would happily change the interpretation used to be more functional.