Hey all, I can't find anything that specifically says this, so looking for if anyone has any RAW guidance on the below scenario:
X begins a full attack against Y while Y is unaware of X. Because of this, Y is denied their Dexterity Bonus to AC. X has 4 attack iterations in their full attack. Y would technically "become aware" of X after the first attack. Does Y regain their Dexterity Bonus to AC immediately after the first attack iteration, and therefore have it for the remaining 3? Or does a "Full Attack" count as one single action that takes place so quickly the target cannot react to it?
I'm just trying to find out if I need to be jumping my NPC's AC in the middle of every single full attack, or if a Full Attack is a single cohesive action the same as a standard attack.
Thank you!
The better and more common example that demonstrates that "yes this is generally what happens" is fighting with regular invisibility. You aren't aware of the invisible attacker for their first iterative, but afterwards they suddenly appear and you are no longer flatfooted because they are invisible, so their second attack starts targeting your normal AC.
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It depends on why he is denied his Dexterity Bonus to AC.
1) The opponent is Flat Footed (i.e. it was surprised and hasn't yet acted during the first full combat round).
- He doesn't regain his Dexterity Bonus until he acts.
2) The target isn't Flat Footed but you are attacking from stealth or you are using Invisibility.
- Both stop working as soon as you make your first attack. The target regains his Dexterity Bonus to AC after your first attack.
3) You are using Greater Invisibility. It persists even after you attack.
- The target doesn't recover his Dexterity Bonus.
4) Other abilities: you need to read the ability description.
I'm just trying to find out if I need to be jumping my NPC's AC in the middle of every single full attack, or if a Full Attack is a single cohesive action the same as a standard attack.
A full attack isn't "a single cohesive action". You can change targets with each attack in a full attack, take a 5' step, drop a weapon and draw a new one (assuming you have Fast Draw), or add any other kind of action that can be made as part of a full attack.
A full attack isn't "a single cohesive action". You can change targets with each attack in a full attack, take a 5' step, drop a weapon and draw a new one (assuming you have Fast Draw), or add any other kind of action that can be made as part of a full attack.
Miscommunication here, I really meant more as in, a full attack is "an action" in the same way that a standard attack is "an action" that you can't mix other things into. A full attack specifically allows a 5 foot step as part of the single action, but you can't do 2 iteratives, move 30 feet as a move action, then take another 2 iteratives, because the full attack is an action that cannot be interrupted with other actions (aside from specific abilities/feats that break this rule).
Generally, the problem becomes mechanics vs. logic is why I asked. A full attack takes *the exact same amount of time* as a standard attack, RAW. So logically, if a target is flat footed to a standard attack because they were unaware of their attacker until the attack commenced, and therefore cannot respond to it in time, then it would also follow that it is the same for a full attack. Otherwise, you start to get into common sense arguments of "An attack doesn't *start* with the blade hitting you, it starts with the attacker raising their blade to strike. If you can react defensively within that 3 seconds against a full attack, you can do so against a standard attack, which means for either, you can react quickly enough to not be flat footed to even the first attack."
Even with things like invisibility, you start to run into this issue if you ask *when does the invisibility drop*. Attacking and missing a target is still an offensive action that removes invisibility, so logically, you lose invisibility *as you start the attack*, not as the blade hits. If someone can raise their dexterity defenses between attack 3 and attack 4 in a Full Attack that last 3 seconds, they can raise their defenses between you raising your arm to strike and actually hitting during a single attack that takes 3 seconds.
Anyway, long story short, this is clearly an area where Mechanics > Logic/Physics/Common sense, which is always areas where I try to find RAW clarifications.
It depends on why he is denied his Dexterity Bonus to AC.
Thanks, this answer is a pretty common one to the question, but what I was really hoping for is a solid answer *in the other direction*. I.e. I'm looking for something official that flat out says "A target can regain their dexterity bonus to AC within the time frame of a full attack".
The reason I want to see it written that way is it makes 0 sense that a target *can* regain their dexterity bonus within the time frame of a full attack, but *cannot* regain their dexterity bonus within the time frame of a standard attack, even though both of these time frames are exactly 3 seconds.
I understand the rule approach of "attacking from stealth denies a target their dexterity bonus, and once you are not stealthed, they are no longer denied their dexterity bonus" but that approach throws logic and sanity out the window. It assumes that your target can identify and respond defensively to you *instantaneously*, literally outside of the passage of time. Now, this isn't the only scenario where mechanics necessarily throw logic and sanity out the window, but whenever they do, I like to try to at least find the RAW support from multiple angles.
So, the real question I'm asking is, *in addition to* the idea that "Denied Dexterity Bonus to AC" is an applied condition that can end in .00000000000000000000001 seconds in the instance of a full attack, but cannot end in 3 full seconds in the instance of a standard attack, is there *also* a RAW entry somewhere that says "Targets can actively regain their Dexterity bonus to AC in the middle of being the subject of a full attack."
Diego Rossi is correct. You are not going to find the answer you are looking for because when you regain your DEX bonus depends on why you lost it. If the condition that caused you to lose your DEX bonus still persists you don’t regain your DEX bonus no matter how much time has passed. You regain your DEX bonus when the condition that caused you to lose DEX bonus ends no matter how little time has passed. This is not different than any other condition.
A full attack isn't "a single cohesive action". You can change targets with each attack in a full attack, take a 5' step, drop a weapon and draw a new one (assuming you have Fast Draw), or add any other kind of action that can be made as part of a full attack.
Miscommunication here, I really meant more as in, a full attack is "an action" in the same way that a standard attack is "an action" that you can't mix other things into. A full attack specifically allows a 5 foot step as part of the single action, but you can't do 2 iteratives, move 30 feet as a move action, then take another 2 iteratives, because the full attack is an action that cannot be interrupted with other actions (aside from specific abilities/feats that break this rule).
Generally, the problem becomes mechanics vs. logic is why I asked. A full attack takes *the exact same amount of time* as a standard attack, RAW. So logically, if a target is flat footed to a standard attack because they were unaware of their attacker until the attack commenced, and therefore cannot respond to it in time, then it would also follow that it is the same for a full attack. Otherwise, you start to get into common sense arguments of "An attack doesn't *start* with the blade hitting you, it starts with the attacker raising their blade to strike. If you can react defensively within that 3 seconds against a full attack, you can do so against a standard attack, which means for either, you can react quickly enough to not be flat footed to even the first attack."
Even with things like invisibility, you start to run into this issue if you ask *when does the invisibility drop*. Attacking and missing a target is still an offensive action that removes invisibility, so logically, you lose invisibility *as you start the attack*, not as the blade hits. If someone can raise their dexterity defenses between attack 3 and attack 4 in a Full Attack that last 3 seconds, they can raise their defenses between you raising your arm to strike and...
the thing is the first attack of a full attack isn't committed. you can take one attack then decide if you continue the full attack or change that attack into an attack action and then use a move action. So it's not as solid as you make it.
In the same way you can take one attack then decide to continue on to full attack or stop and do other things. (of course if your full attack would have been under penalties and you didn't take them, such as two weapon fighting, you can't continue with two weapon fighting if the 1st attack didn't take the penalty to enable it)
It depends on why he is denied his Dexterity Bonus to AC.
Thanks, this answer is a pretty common one to the question, but what I was really hoping for is a solid answer *in the other direction*. I.e. I'm looking for something official that flat out says "A target can regain their dexterity bonus to AC within the time frame of a full attack".
The reason I want to see it written that way is it makes 0 sense that a target *can* regain their dexterity bonus within the time frame of a full attack, but *cannot* regain their dexterity bonus within the time frame of a standard attack, even though both of these time frames are exactly 3 seconds.
I understand the rule approach of "attacking from stealth denies a target their dexterity bonus, and once you are not stealthed, they are no longer denied their dexterity bonus" but that approach throws logic and sanity out the window. It assumes that your target can identify and respond defensively to you *instantaneously*, literally outside of the passage of time. Now, this isn't the only scenario where mechanics necessarily throw logic and sanity out the window, but whenever they do, I like to try to at least find the RAW support from multiple angles.
So, the real question I'm asking is, *in addition to* the idea that "Denied Dexterity Bonus to AC" is an applied condition that can end in .00000000000000000000001 seconds in the instance of a full attack, but cannot end in 3 full seconds in the instance of a standard attack, is there *also* a RAW entry somewhere that says "Targets can actively regain their Dexterity bonus to AC in the middle of being the subject of a full attack."
A fairly common house rule is that if one of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted), then ALL of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted).
It makes the game simpler to run, and combat flows more smoothly.
Generally, the problem becomes mechanics vs. logic is why I asked. A full attack takes *the exact same amount of time* as a standard attack, RAW. So logically, if a target is flat footed to a standard attack because they were unaware of their attacker until the attack commenced, and therefore cannot respond to it in time, then it would also follow that it is the same for a full attack.
The rules do not define how long any given action type takes (though ~3 seconds is a common interpetation for how long a standard action takes). But even without a clear definition, a full attack taking the same time as a standard attack does not follow logically.
A standard action (attack) takes ~3 seconds. Then you still have a move action left over that takes the other ~3 seconds of your 6 second turn.
A full attack requires the use of a full round action. The full round action uses both your standard and move actions for the round. Thus logically a full round action requires ~6 seconds to perform.
A defender may not have seen the first attack coming, but there is some amount of time that occurs between the first attack and subsequent attacks in which they can start dodging/reacting to those visible attacks.
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A fairly common house rule is that if one of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted), then ALL of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted).
It makes the game simpler to run, and combat flows more smoothly.
Bold statement. I never heard of that home rule before today. I don't think it is that common.
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Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.
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Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
What denies the target the Dexterity bonus to AC is your Stealth. Your Stealth stops as soon as you make an attack roll, not after you have made all your iterative attacks.
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually indetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against a sighted opponent, and ignores its opponent’s Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature.
Again, being invisible is what negates the Dexterity Bonus to AC of the defender. As soon as the attacker is no longer invisible, that negation is removed.
You are asking for "a confirmation that the Dexterity Bonus is regained", but the rules work the other way: they say when the Dexterity Bonus is lost.
If the conditions that deny the Dexterity AC bonus are no longer in effect the bonus is active.
There is no "lingering loss of the bonus".
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I'm just trying to find out if I need to be jumping my NPC's AC in the middle of every single full attack, or if a Full Attack is a single cohesive action the same as a standard attack.
If your character uses two weapons, and one is a +5 dagger while the other is as cheap as possible normal dagger, you are "jumping" your attacks by 5 points every time he changes hands, or you say "It is a full attack, so it uses a single bonus for all the attacks"?
(And I am disregarding the malus for iterative attacks, which put even more the lie to that idea.)
Keep in mind that the game abstracts a lot of the real-world mechanics it simulates. Using real world logic on those abstractions does not work.
Bold statement. I never heard of that home rule before today. I don't think it is that common.A fairly common house rule is that if one of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted), then ALL of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted).
It makes the game simpler to run, and combat flows more smoothly.
in all my years of play, in all the conventions I have played in, in all the groups I have played, it's been played that way probably 75% of the time. and almost always "for simplicity" is the given reason.
I guess we just run in different circles.....
A fairly common house rule is that if one of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted), then ALL of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted).
It makes the game simpler to run, and combat flows more smoothly.
When you say “negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted),” are you differentiating between “not allowing [an enemy] to use his Dexterity bonus to AC” and making an enemy flat footed?
I ask because that house rule ignores the difference between, say, Two-Weapon Feint and Improved Two-Weapon Feint—both of which involve a character with multiple attacks, but only of which allows said character to deny his target their Dex bonus to their AC for more than one attack.
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Bold statement. I never heard of that home rule before today. I don't think it is that common.A fairly common house rule is that if one of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted), then ALL of your attacks negates a targets Dex to AC (Flatfooted).
It makes the game simpler to run, and combat flows more smoothly.
in all my years of play, in all the conventions I have played in, in all the groups I have played, it's been played that way probably 75% of the time. and almost always "for simplicity" is the given reason.
I guess we just run in different circles.....
Wait a second, you are speaking of having your Dexterity Bonus to AC negated, or of being Flat-footed?
Flat-footed is a very specific term in-game, and it isn't the same thing as having your Dexterity Bonus to AC negated. It includes that but it does more.
Flat-Footed: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation.
A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.
Some abilities can impose that condition, but normally it applies only at the start of a battle.
So, if you are speaking of being Flat-footed, and Flat-footed only, yes, it applies until the target gets his first action (again, barring specific abilities), but we were speaking of having your Dexterity Bonus to AC negated, and that can be caused by way more things that being Flat-footed.