Game Master here. A player has a character who uses whips as their main weapon. They have Whip Mastery and argue that this feat implies that when using a whip, they can perform combat maneuvers without provoking an attack of opportunity. The core of their argument is that combat maneuvers are considered attacks that do not deal damage (and usually add applicable bonuses to the attack). Therefore, they do not provoke attacks of opportunity if performed with the whip while having the feat. What do you think?
"You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus."
"Normal: Attacking with a whip provokes attacks of opportunity as if you used a ranged weapon. A whip deals no damage to a creature that has an armor bonus of +1 or natural armor bonus of +3."
As you can see, the "Normal" section point out the AoO mentioned is about the "as if you used a ranged weapon". Combat manuever is not mentioned inside
No, whip mastery does not prevent you from provoking an AoO when performing a combat maneuverer with a whip. Normally just attacking with a whip provokes an AoO. Whip Mastery allows you to attack with a whip without provoking an AoO just from using the whip. Anything else that provokes an AoO still provokes. Likewise, you also still provoke when moving out of threatened square or anything else that provokes an AoO.
Attacking with an unarmed attack also provokes an AoO, unless you have improved unarmed strike. If you have improved unarmed strike, you still provoke an AoO when using combat maneuvers unless you have the improved combat maneuver feat or specifically states you do not provoke while performing the maneuver.
I mean, you could interpret the text that way, but no one really considers that to be RAI, so the standard is that no, whip mastery does not prevent you from provoking an AoO with a combat maneuver.
With that said, if you are using a whip to make a maneuver, probably you are making an attack from reach, and it doesn't matter if your combat maneuver provokes an AoO if your opponent has insufficient reach for you to be in their threatened area. But if the target of the maneuver has insufficient reach to strike back, (there may be table variation here) it can still use the AoO to make a disarm maneuver against the whip, but that disarm maneuver will be made with a -4 penalty if the person making the maneuver is unarmed and it will provoke an AoO if the user does not have Improved Disarm. And if the player uses a locked gauntlet and/or weapon cord, a disarm maneuver will not pose much threat. It is also possible to make a sunder maneuver against the whip with the AoO but typically there is somewhat of a gentleman's agreement to not destroy valuable player items and that will also provoke an AoO without Improved Sunder. If you want to sunder a whip, probably I would rule it to count as a leather item and give it 5 hit points and 2 hardness (a whip's diameter is 1 inch, not counting the handle), but magic weapons gain an additional +10 hitpoints and +2 hardness for every +1 bonus and he can use one or more fortifying stones to raise it considerably. Destroyed magic items (including whips) can also be restored with a casting of Make Whole (or its greater variant), provided the caster level is sufficient. When it comes to provoking AoOs from the whip's user, unless the whip's user has Improved Whip Mastery, the whip does not threaten an area and therefore cannot take AoOs (but you can still take AoOs with other weapons, and anyone else threatening the target can take an AoO too).
You cannot make a disarm against a target you cannot attack. So, unless the weapon you are using has reach you cannot make a disarm against a whip unless the target is next to you. When you make a disarm you are targeting the character not the weapon. A GM is of course free to allow it, but that is a house rule not the way the game normally works.
You cannot make a disarm against a target you cannot attack. So, unless the weapon you are using has reach you cannot make a disarm against a whip unless the target is next to you. When you make a disarm you are targeting the character not the weapon. A GM is of course free to allow it, but that is a house rule not the way the game normally works.
It is one of the first things I learned in this forum. Before that, I was convinced that you could do it simply by reading an action without needing a specific feat.
You cannot make a disarm against a target you cannot attack. So, unless the weapon you are using has reach you cannot make a disarm against a whip unless the target is next to you. When you make a disarm you are targeting the character not the weapon. A GM is of course free to allow it, but that is a house rule not the way the game normally works.
This is the issue, yes. There does tend to be table variation on this specific issue because while the player is not within reach of the threatened area, the weapon through which the AoO is provoked is within the threatened area at the time of provoking the AoO so at some tables you are allowed to take AoOs that target the weapon but the not the hand that wields it.
I suspect you're right though. If an enemy using the Lunge feat hits you at 10 feet, provoking an AoO by making an unarmed strike without Improved Unarmed Strike, while you do not have 10 feet of reach, you typically do not get to take that AoO anyway and do him damage by targeting his fist, because he is technically still outside your threatened area. (Interestingly enough though, Lunge does increase your threatened area for the duration of your turn, so if someone does something that provokes an AoO on your turn while you are lunging, you actually get the extra threatened area to make the AoO.)
So by that token, under this ruling, you do not get to take any attack of opportunity if someone performs a combat maneuver with a whip from a distance where you do not threaten them, not even by targeting the whip. So although Whip Mastery does not stop his attack from provoking an AoO, performing the maneuver from a sufficient distance as to be outside their threatened area would still prevent the AoO.
Incidentally, on the subject of sundering whips, if the whip in question happens to be a stinging whip instead of a regular whip, then the whip is made of metallic wire and would have 30 hitpoints and 10 hardness, assuming it is not made of special material.
It is one of the first things I learned in this forum. Before that, I was convinced that you could do it simply by reading an action without needing a specific feat.
The Strike Back feat actually allows you to do hp damage with a non-reach melee weapon to someone attacking you with a reach weapon with a readied action. (By the way, if you are readying an action for a melee attack and haven't moved that turn, you can take a 5 foot step as part of that readied action to give yourself reach. Depending on how you move, that 5 foot step can even move you outside their attack range, such as by stepping into adjacent range of someone with a reach weapon or stepping out of the way to hit someone else the moment they try to attack.) And sometimes there are feats that allow you to do things that are normally permitted without it. The False Casting feat, for instance, lets you use the bluff skill to deceive people into thinking you are spellcasting while using a spell-like ability or magic item, which seems like a basic use of the skill, not a feat. I think the original Prone Shooter feat was especially egregious in this regard, as it removed the attack penalty for shooting a crossbow while prone (there is no such penalty).
Just to be clear and avoid any possible misreading, by "take a 5 foot step to give yourself reach" I do not mean increasing your reach, but just repositioning yourself to put enemies within reach of you.
The Strike Back feat actually allows you to do hp damage with a non-reach melee weapon to someone attacking you with a reach weapon with a readied action.
You aren't limited to hp damage.
The feat allows you to read an action to make a melee attack with a non-reach melee weapon against someone attacking you with reach.
Disarm and Sunder are made "in place of a melee attack".
Sunder has some added text that is missing in Disarm:
CRB wrote:
Sunder
You can attempt to sunder an item held or worn by your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.
so you can't attempt a Sunder attack with an AoO, but it isn't a problem with Stike Back, as you are using a readied attack action.
whips are a bit funky and you have to read the weapon descriptions and feats carefully, pay close attention to how their reach and damage restrictions function. It takes a lot of feats to make them a practical weapon and their damage remains low.
If a feat affects AoOs, reach, function it will say so, stick to explicit text.
(Glrn Limp Lash spell FAQ as the spell was hindered by the weapon rules)
UltCmbt Scorpion Whip FAQ
PFS Cmpgn Clarification:
Adventurer's Armory
Page 4 — Change the last sentence of the scorpion whip’s description to the following, “If you are proficient with both scorpion whips and whips, you can use a scorpion whip in either the normal way, as a typical light performance weapon, or as a whip. When you use a scorpion whip as a whip, it is otherwise equivalent to a whip, but it deals lethal damage and can harm creatures regardless of their armor bonus.”
Inside Back Cover — replace “disarm, reach, trip” in the scorpion whip’s Special entry with “performance”.
Villain Codex
Page 80—When using the Balor Whip feat, note the following, pulled from the text of a blog from the design team, “If you’re using a weapon with the trip special feature, and you’re attempting a drag or reposition combat maneuver (Advanced Player’s Guide 321–322), you may apply the weapon’s bonuses to the roll because trip weapons are also suitable for dragging and repositioning.”
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CM sunder that provokes and damage must overcome the object's Hardness. Each +1 enhancement adds +2 Hrd and 10 HPs. Then Fortifying Stone [none] $1000.
break:T1 (twice) is a far better option.
