RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not in the show itself. That was another just weird thing. Saw an article with the showrunner explaining it as a combination of wanting to put Sol even more upset frustrated and off balance (cause it's always good to have characters do things that make no sense just to advance some plot point rather than think of a way that works), and also that the ysoki was hiding in the ship and witnessed the entire Episode 7 flashback being told to Mae while she was restrained, and therefore though somehow sabotaging the ship was a worthy and heroic action??!
Also, you'd think being a stowaway on a Jedi would be next to impossible with Jedi sensing emotions and life, but see above for the fact that in this show Jedi seem unable to do that (unless it's their former padawan).
The other thing that struck me as odd was why the Jedi ship even had a drop ship for one person, seems like an odd ship design to have a single person drop ship for a ship of maybe a dozen passengers at most, when the entire ship is also a drop ship from the hyper drive. Sure, it's an extra nice escape pod...for one, sucks if you're not the first to it in an emergency though. Seems like it existed purely for the plot purpose of having a semi boring chase through the ring of the planet which then was aborted before any satisfying conclusion due to the sabotage. If you're going to have a chase scene, let it be a cool one, not a useless waste of special effects with no conclusion. It's as if the asteroid belt scene from Empire Strikes Back ended after one tie fighter got destroyed, and then the rest said, sorry Vader, he got away, we're returning to the star destroyer.
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It DOES get what my wife would call the art student crowd, and may really appeal to them(it did to her).Ok so.. as an absolute philistine I have to ask what it's doing that clicks with people? Is it like an escher painting where the fact that it's not real allows it to make less sense and still work as a medium, or is it that they just don't care about the nuts and bolts?
Well, it's telling a tale on a smaller scale that would not be told on a larger one that shows the Jedi as flawed mortals, not impeccable heroes. That alone resonates with many, especially with how incredibly ugly many Star Wars fans have been of late, proclaiming that the jedi would never do something wrong without automatically falling to the dark side(despite that being shown many times in the past). The acting is a bit wooden(Sols character in particular must be not only forgiven but praised for learning english in what has to be an astonishingly short time), but gets away from some of the quippiness seen in the prequels and sequels, and also shows the Jedi to be a flawed organization through inference(they all wear the same outfits, defer to leadership without question, and come up with some cockamamie cock and bull story rather than embarrass the organizarion as whole when under duresss) instead of through someone saying so while staring directly at the camera. Also the action is surprisingly brutal with high stakes, and some excellent cinematography AND choreography there- I sure as hell couldn't do what they did there in an afternoon, unlike how I learned some tricks from NYJedi that could make me look like I could flail a lightsaber around like in Revenge of the Sith as if I had been doing it for years.
The last jedi **shudder twitch shudder twitch** had the same thing going on and the same divide. It just completely rejects any concept of a metanarative or a higher truth as if they get in the way of the medium rather than informing it.
*sigh* Yes yes yes, Sequels suck. Those movies were some turkeys. The prequels were too, but noone seems to remember that. Neither have anything to do with this show.
A story can be thought of as having three layers
The stuff happening on screen in front of you now (the tip of the iceberg)
The stuff that exists in the world even when you're not looking at it. (the bottom of the ice berg)
The deeper themes messages and morals of the story. (...kinda out of ice berg analogy. Maybe the currents the iceberg leaves in the water?)
The Acolyte and the last jedi are REALLY thin on that middle layer and really heavy on that bottom one.
Actually, a lot happens when we aren't looking. The criticism of the jedi grows both in public and in private. The concern over just what is happening on the planet grows. Emotions go from shock to hurt to planning reprisals for just about everyone
Usually a created universe has an external reality to it (a fake reality).
It adheres kinda to normal physics to some degree but as long as its the same degree it doesn't really matter. (Say, even non benders in Avatar surviving unarmored swordfights without a body count)
The magic has consistent rules to avoid being a total other ysoki cheekpouch pull whenever magic solves something OR the writers set up a situation and the characters DON"T use magic to solve it.
Every story has the meta reality of the characters. Sol is a jedi. That persists from scene to scene. Good stories have characters with personalities, goals, motivations, wants needs desires and other characteristics. These can grow and change over time, but if they change so fast and so often they don't seem to exist that is
a) jarring b) doesn't let you build off of them c) under cuts a lot of what you're trying to build to. If anything can or can't happen you can't hint at things or set things up. You can't signal someone acting under mind control by showing them acting out of character if they don't have a character. You can build up tension with a cheap scene like luke tossing his light saber away as if there was some great reason for it and then never provide that reason.
This goes at least doubly in a created universe.
I actually loved Luke tossing away his lightsaber. Because it was consistent in that he never really used it in the film, just the force. He never took a violent action against anyone, just some intimidation along with reproach. That's pretty consistent. But, again, that has nothing to do with this TV series. Stop picking at the wound from the sequels, you will only hurt yourself and get blood all over the place.
... and that's why I think you're seeing a lot of "bad faith" criticism. These two stories chuck out that middle layer so often that when it's there it might entirely coincidental. Qimir might have had a lesson to the darkside in mind, or I might be seeing a dragon in a randomly shaped fluffy cloud.
Implying that sexual violence should happen to all of the women involved in the show is not "bad faith", it's just bad faith. I should have been more clear with respect to what I'm talking about there.
With respect to the layers, I agree it's lacking in the second part. But there are always going to be people who have issues with that second part. Some need to have things spelled out for them, others find it insulting. Some are really attached to the works that came before, others are less so. I find that the art student crowd is least attached to the second layer, which results in a lot of high concept stuff. It's why we got weeiiiirrrd stuff in Star Wars Visions(a high school/college art project if I ever saw one) as opposed to a dry re-reading of in-world scripture. Whether or not you liked it was a matter of personal taste. But even the original movies implied that the force was for everyone as it was composed of everyone, and some of the earlier official books outright stated that the Jedi were just one interpretation of something everyone not just has access to but has been unconsciously manipulating since time immemorial.
That said, some of those works, Visions and semi-fanfiction alike, were turkeys too.
It's like someone crying wolf. If there is no logical explanation except one time in 10 you stop looking for it and stop having faith that the story will provide it.
Some find that lack of faith disturbing. I find it disturbing that losing that faith has been warranted.
Looking for logic in a space fantasy epic is only going to result in an ocean of tears and a beach of grains of sand composed of internet forum arguements. Misery.
What really bothers me is that there is almost NO downside to having that middle layer there. Taking a second whack with the writing isn't cheap, but writing is still by orders of magnitude the cheapest part of the show. You can almost always get the result you want anyway and it creates a better payout.
Phone is about to die. Will come back to this later.
Well, it's telling a tale on a smaller scale that would not be told on a larger one that shows the Jedi as flawed mortals, not impeccable heroes.
It TRIES to do that but since it doesn't have that middle layer it's telling that message on a higher level than it can show it. You can't show the jedi being wrong if everything is a muddled nonsensical mush. You need to have a right answer and then not do it which you can't have if your underwriting reality doesn't have right answers and get logically get to them.
instead of through someone saying so while staring directly at the camera. Also the action is surprisingly brutal with high stakes, and some excellent cinematography AND choreography there-
It's really uneven. Most of the fights are good, but then there's something that really doesn't work like the crouching tiger slow fall, swinging at each other from 15 feet away, or when the apprentice went mano a mano with Qimir while sol was just standing there 15 feet away. There's the random pan back to the woods where.. yes the entire episode has taken place. Its not like you need to remind me we're not on corsucant anymore.
I sure as hell couldn't do what they did there in an afternoon, unlike how I learned some tricks from NYJedi that could make me look like I could flail a lightsaber around like in Revenge of the Sith as if I had been doing it for years.
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*sigh* Yes yes yes, Sequels suck. Those movies were some turkeys. The prequels were too, but noone seems to remember that. Neither have anything to do with this
Pepridge farm remembers! Also yes i hate the prequels for flubbing darth vadars fall.
Actually, a lot happens when we aren't looking.
let me take another whack at what I mean.
When you aren't looking at Chewie he is loyal to Han. That is an essential quality of the character that persists accross space and time. You can't measure it, you can't weigh it, but its just as much a part of chewie as his fur. If Chewie is betraying han, you know it's a set up.
But these characters don't have that. They don't have a metanarative, a higher truth, or an existance beyond now. Whatever is happening now, is happening now, and that's IT. If someone has a cool idea for Chewie betraying han, in it goes!
It's horrible storytelling. It cannot build a character only destroy them.
I actually loved Luke tossing away his lightsaber.
It was great when it happened because it promised a story worthy of the moment "holy (#)*$)*$ how did THIS happen?!?!?" How did the very emblem of hope give up? And... the answer is he had a bad dream his nephew would turn evil and tried to murderate him in his sleep. The guy who's father blew up planets and he was like "i think i can find some good under that" tries to prune the family tree because of a feeling.
It takes a way a characters essential character because they want the high point of the light saber toss and the here's johny scene with a light saber.
You can't keep doing that and expect the audience to keep falling for it. Eventually the dog knows you're not going to throw the ball if you keep miming the actions of fetch without the substance.
If you're just filming disconnected scenes you're not telling a story.
But, again, that has nothing to do with this TV series.
It really does. It's the same post modern style followed by the exact same accusations of you don't like it because you don't get it and are _____ist.
you will only hurt yourself and get blood all over the place.
pictures a wolf running through a field to the tune of "We're painting the roses red...."
With respect to the layers, I agree it's lacking in the second part. But there are always going to be people who have issues with that second part.
It's a big planet. Someone will have an issue with anything. But there's a bell curve. It's a lore heavy setting, it really would help if someone caught things like Kai abin mundi not being alive yet. But it's not going to kill the story. But if they can't even get basics like rocks aren't flamable they're not going to be able to have a coherent story.
If you have a a world where people can be jedi mind tricked or have their memories erased the audience needs some clue where space magic starts and a giant plot hole begins.
Looking for logic in a space fantasy epic is only going to result in an ocean of tears and a beach of grains of sand composed of internet forum arguements. Misery.
I vehemently disagree. Space fantasy epics and other created worlds need to be even more careful with that middle layer or they rapidly descend into everyone just doing completely random crap like an episode of axe cop if we're lucky. Entire scenes hinge on that layer. Why is the milenium falcon not just hitting hyperspace to avoid the fight? Because that takes time. AND because its necessary for the scene. Peanut butter and jelly working together to make a better sandwich.
Look how flat the "you're not twins you're the same person" revelation falls. None of that means anything. They didn't build up "normal space magic" to the point that "special space magic" could be or do anything weird.
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It TRIES to do that but since it doesn't have that middle layer it's telling that message on a higher level than it can show it. You can't show the jedi being wrong if everything is a muddled nonsensical mush. You need to have a right answer and then not do it which you can't have if your underwriting reality doesn't have right answers and get logically get to them.
That's a rather monochromatic approach, don't you think? Do you really need the Jedi refusing to help an old lady across the street in order for them to be wrong?
It's really uneven. Most of the fights are good, but then there's something that really doesn't work like the crouching tiger slow fall, swinging at each other from 15 feet away, or when the apprentice went mano a mano with Qimir while sol was just standing there 15 feet away. There's the random pan back to the woods where.. yes the entire episode has taken place. Its not like you need to remind me we're not on corsucant anymore.
The fights were awesome. Agree to disagree there.
[QUOTW]Pepridge farm remembers! Also yes i hate the prequels for flubbing darth vadars fall.
DO NOT WANT
let me take another whack at what I mean.
When you aren't looking at Chewie he is loyal to Han. That is an essential quality of the character that persists accross space and time. You can't measure it, you can't weigh it, but its just as much a part of chewie as his fur. If Chewie is betraying han, you know it's a set up.
But these characters don't have that. They don't have a metanarative, a higher truth, or an existance beyond now. Whatever is happening now, is happening now, and that's IT. If someone has a cool idea for Chewie betraying han, in it goes!
It's horrible storytelling. It cannot build a character only destroy them.
Except none of these people are Chewie or Han. No cool ideas for a thing that never happened with characters that aren't even in the film. Except for the rightfully named Sir Not Appearing In This Film. He killed it, as always.
It was great when it happened because it promised a story worthy of the moment "holy (#)*$)*$ how did THIS happen?!?!?" How did the very emblem of hope give up? And... the answer is he had a bad dream his nephew would turn evil and tried to murderate him in his sleep. The guy who's father blew up planets and he was like "i think i can find some good under that" tries to prune the family tree because of a feeling.
It takes a way a characters essential character because they want the high point of the light saber toss and the here's johny scene with a light saber.
You can't keep doing that and expect the audience to keep falling for it. Eventually the dog knows you're not going to throw the ball if you keep miming the actions of fetch without the substance.
If you're just filming disconnected scenes you're not telling a story.
He saw what he was doing. He was horrified by his own actions. Ashamed. And then his nephew woke up.
Has NOTHING to do with this. I beg of you, as I have begged of others. Stop going back to the sequels because you're upset at something in front of you. Blood. Everywhere. Misery. Eternal.
It really does. It's the same post modern style followed by the exact same accusations of you don't like it because you don't get it and are _____ist.
What.
No really. What?
I already pointed out issues with supposed fans going into bigoted rape fantasy territory while defending earlier works. Is that what you are alluding to here? Because that has NOTHING to do with post modern style with EVERYTHING to do with people being monstrous.
pictures a wolf running through a field to the tune of "We're painting the roses red...."
Yes. Please. Stop doing that. You will only hurt yourself and get blood everywhere.
It's a big planet. Someone will have an issue with anything. But there's a bell curve. It's a lore heavy setting, it really would help if someone caught things like Kai abin mundi not being alive yet. But it's not going to kill the story. But if they can't even get basics like rocks aren't flamable they're not going to be able to have a coherent story.
If you have a a world where people can be jedi mind tricked or have their memories erased the audience needs some clue where space magic starts and a giant plot hole begins.
Ohhh no. You don't get to muddy the waters here by dismissing any criticism you disagree with while nursing your own pet criticisms. We do not/should not? have to steep ourselves in lore to enjoy a TV show.And yes, rocks have interesting relationships with fire- flint, coal, magma, etc. You can't get mad about that while zealously defending space magic.
vehemently disagree. Space fantasy epics and other created worlds need to be even more careful with that middle layer or they rapidly descend into everyone just doing completely random crap like an episode of axe cop if we're lucky. Entire scenes hinge on that layer. Why is the milenium falcon not just hitting hyperspace to avoid the fight? Because that takes time. AND because its necessary for the scene. Peanut butter and jelly working together to make a better sandwich.
Look how flat the "you're not twins you're the same person" revelation falls. None of that means anything. They didn't build up "normal space magic" to the point that "special space magic" could be or do anything weird.
Star Wars in particular has played loose goosey with that layer for decades upon decades. Read some of the earlier stories. Not a lot of stuff made consecutive sense there.
Do you really need the Jedi refusing to help an old lady across the street in order for them to be wrong?
In order to be wrong, someone has to take actions that they know can reasonably lead to a bad result and the bad result has to follow from their actions.
If I throw pepper in someones face and they have an asthma attack, that's on me. If i throw pepper in someone's face and they sneeze and that knocks over a building that lands on a nuclear reactor that's the universe out to get me. There's no way someone could have reasonably predicted THAT outcome from that action.
The fights were awesome. Agree to disagree there.
Mostly agree. I didn't like the crouching tiger slow fall, and I didn't like the apprentice going to to toe with qimir with Sol just standing there. They could have force chucked him off a cliff. (also the trees fell the wrong way but hey...it really didn';t matter and it looked cool)
Except none of these people are Chewie or Han.
No, but they have to be SOMEONE. Someone with a personality, goals, and how they go about rationally connecting one to the other IN the story. Not just a means for the story to happen.
Has NOTHING to do with this. I beg of you, as I have begged of others. Stop going back to the sequels because you're upset at something in front of you. Blood. Everywhere. Misery. Eternal.
It's only geek warfare when we fight back?
If hey would stop repeating the same mistake i would stop chewing on the content creators.
No really. What?
The standard defense of the show has been that the fans hate the shows because they're sexist or racist or .... I guess we'll be anti chlorophyll or something for the next one.
Ohhh no. You don't get to muddy the waters here by dismissing any criticism you disagree with while nursing your own pet criticisms. We do not/should not? have to steep ourselves in lore to enjoy a TV show.And yes, rocks have interesting relationships with fire- flint, coal, magma, etc. You can't get mad about that while zealously defending space magic.
Now who's dealing in absolutes? There is a matter of degree (if a y wing carries 22 proton bombs is the movie ruined? ... 100? What if they take out the deathstar 4.0 ?) and how load bearing the idea is. In story we don't even hear Kai's name. That could be his father/grandfather for all we know. It also doesn't matter because him being the same person doesn't matter.
It's really not any better. The space witches can force clone people but they live in a coal mine and can only light the place with a torch made out of space napalm outside the room of 2 telekinetic cantankerous ten year olds and the torch is made of glass?
The writers had an idea of a tragedy but no idea how to make it happen without making the jedi out to be monsters so they just made the whole situation out to be random. Trinity killed 20 witches with a dispel magic for some reason. Because they needed to die in a non fire non jedi way, not because the force should work that way.
If the writers can't get how rocks work, how a they supposed to get how people work? During the woods fight everyone changes their minds every 14 seconds just because the writers wanted a different scene. bazil the ysoki crashes sols ship.. that he's on... for.. reasons. Sol doesn't mention "hey.. your mom turned into an evil black cloud that was killing your sister thats why i ganked her" because if anyone talked to anyone else for 30 seconds there wouldn't be any plots.
Everything from the physics to the characters non motivations serve ONLY to make the plot happen. Those are the structure of the story, you have to use them to build it, not just glop it out into a random shape.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Look how flat the "you're not twins you're the same person" revelation falls.
It failed so bad I didn't even catch it was a fact. It came across to me as simply Sol being crazy and out of touch with reality. There's nothing in the show indicating they are the same person and not twins aside from his one line of dialog, after its been made pretty clear that's he's out of touch. I still don't consider it to be a fact, even if the show creator comes out and says it. Nothing in the show indicates that's the case.
There's actually strong evidence in the show they are not the same person. They have different personalities, even as kids, different force strengths, different memories once they get split up, and different skill sets. All of those are 100% opposite of what "you're the same person" would mean. If the whole series we see Osha suddenly knowing things only Mae would know, then maybe I'd believe that theory, but instead it just is Sols crazy theory explaining why he went to such great lengths to break Jedi rules and cover it up.
....When you aren't looking at Chewie he is loyal to Han. That is an essential quality of the character that persists accross space and time. You can't measure it, you can't weigh it, but its just as much a part of chewie as his fur. If Chewie is betraying han, you know it's a set up.
But these characters don't have that. They don't have a metanarative, a higher truth, or an existance beyond now. Whatever is happening now, is happening now, and that's IT. If someone has a cool idea for Chewie betraying han, in it goes!
It's horrible storytelling. It cannot build a character only destroy them....
Hopping over the heated discussion - it was good btw and the Wolf is right imho - I just had to reply to this statement.
Somewhere in the mass of promo interviews for this utter failure of a SW series I heard Leslye Headland state (brag? sounded like a brag to me but I was not paying especially close attention) that she specifically picked writers who knew nothing about the IP.
I watched the first episode, couldn't make it through the second, and my only memory of the experience is - What a waste of "Trinity".
I have one coworker who was all in until episode 7 and was left speechless after watching episode 8. Another coworker who believes the series got better with each episode and loved episode 7 only a little less than episode 8. I get the first coworker but I have absolutely no idea where the second person is coming from.... This show was like self-published teen fan fiction. I've seen more interesting writing on public bathroom walls*
* srsly! There was a poem on the wall of the first floor engineering building at uni that stayed there for years. Other graffiti got removed or painted over stat but this one, between the first and second urinal, was on the wall for over two years. Alas I didn't memorize or snap a pic but it was funny w/o being vulgar.
I have the same feeling towards the prequels and yet have to endure apologists giving me the gospel according to Lucas should I ever say anything.
In order to be wrong, someone has to take actions that they know can reasonably lead to a bad result and the bad result has to follow from their actions.If I throw pepper in someones face and they have an asthma attack, that's on me. If i throw pepper in someone's face and they sneeze and that knocks over a building that lands on a nuclear reactor that's the universe out to get me. There's no way someone could have reasonably predicted THAT outcome from that action.
That's a rather tortured approach to right and wrong. I can be wrong in ignorance or standards that made sense at the time but are viewed as horrific in the light of modern day. The inspiration for the original down is based on that mindset.
Mostly agree. I didn't like the crouching tiger slow fall, and I didn't like the apprentice going to to toe with qimir with Sol just standing there. They could have force chucked him off a cliff. (also the trees fell the wrong way but hey...it really didn';t matter and it looked cool)
If that's going to be your go to, I would suggest not watching any star wars material. There are a number of situations where someone should have been force choked or pushed into space or whatever.
No, but they have to be SOMEONE. Someone with a personality, goals, and how they go about rationally connecting one to the other IN the story. Not just a means for the story to happen.
So you want them to stare at the camera and give their life story from the 3rd person? You're setting yourself up for disappointment at that juncture.
It's only geek warfare when we fight back?
If hey would stop repeating the same mistake i would stop chewing on the content creators.
Does this include Lucas?
The standard defense of the show has been that the fans hate the shows because they're sexist or racist or .... I guess we'll be anti chlorophyll or something for the next one.
I have yet to see ANYONE say this. Until I get some solid proof, I am going to file this under too much time online in the wrong forums. That said, dismissing bigotry is a bad look, ESPECIALLY with your username.
Now who's dealing in absolutes? There is a matter of degree (if a y wing carries 22 proton bombs is the movie ruined? ... 100? What if they take out the deathstar 4.0 ?) and how load bearing the idea is. In story we don't even hear Kai's name. That could be his father/grandfather for all we know. It also doesn't matter because him being the same person doesn't matter.
It's really not any better. The space witches can force clone people but they live in a coal mine and can only light the place with a torch made out of space napalm outside the room of 2 telekinetic cantankerous ten year olds and the torch is made of glass?
I could have sworn the second look at that scene showed it was a lot more than just space rocks and fire. Moreover, if you're going to go down this route, why isn't everyone's lives saved with bacta tanks?
The writers had an idea of a tragedy but no idea how to make it happen without making the jedi out to be monsters so they just made the whole situation out to be random. Trinity killed 20 witches with a dispel magic for some reason. Because they needed to die in a non fire non jedi way, not because the force should work that way.
It's been shown in earlier works that hooking yourself up to other people with the force is risky, and can lead to feedback that could kill you.
If the writers can't get how rocks work, how a they supposed to get how people work?
We have been over this before. Coal. Magma. Flint. Etc. Lots of real life examples that throw doubt on this "thats not how rocks work!!!" nonsense.
During the woods fight everyone changes their minds every 14 seconds just because the writers wanted a different scene. bazil the ysoki crashes sols ship.. that he's on... for.. reasons. Sol doesn't mention "hey.. your mom turned into an evil black cloud that was killing your sister thats why i ganked her" because if anyone talked to anyone else for 30 seconds there wouldn't be any plots.
Actually I have to admit I'm lost on the ysoki guy.
Sol was guilt ridden over what he did- he killed in fear and ignorance. I could see someone as brittle as he is just shutting out what he did instead of attempting to explain himself.
[QUOTE) Everything from the physics to the characters non motivations serve ONLY to make the plot happen.
Thats just about any story. Otherwise you are just putting random words to paper.
Those are the structure of the story, you have to use them to build it, not just glop it out into a random shape.
Use it they did. But you didn't like the shape it took.
And the pain is officially over. The Acolyte has been cancelled and won't be returning for season 2.
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If that's going to be your go to, I would suggest not watching any star wars material. There are a number of situations where someone should have been force choked or pushed into space or whatever.
Different reason. "Why are you using a light saber and not the force here" is firmly in the handwavium of invisible physics.
But as far as keeping track of the fight with miniatures goes, Sol is standing right there doing nothing while Joqui goes to town with the big bad and then gets perforated. Why is sol just standing there doing nothing? As cool as the scene was, that really stood out even while watching it.
You need that moment to happen for the story, which is understandable. The innocent is going to die and he's going to make Sol watch while she does.
But in order for that moment to happen Sol just has to stand there doing nothing, without any reason for Sol to be standing there doing nothing. There are dozens of ways you could get Sol out of the way for that moment to happen... force chuck him over the cliff , hit him in the head with a rock, light saber a tree on top of him etc
The writing doesn't seem to understand that there is an interplay, a back and forth between cool scenes and the made up reality. And because they continually do that. You have to work and build towards that sort of thing, there needs to be a foundation and then scaffolding and THEN you can have the penthouse views.
So you want them to stare at the camera and give their life story from the 3rd person? You're setting yourself up for disappointment at that juncture.
There are many ways to do that. Show works better than tell. The opening to the Guardians of the galaxy for example, you see that Quill wants to be indiana jones but no one will take him seriously (including himself) and his ego is bigger than his notoriety.
Yord Starching his robe was I thought the best touch in the entire show. But they didn't really stick with it that much.
Does this include Lucas?
Yes. For doing the deathstar twice and flubbing the Vader falls arc in the prequels.
I have yet to see ANYONE say this. Until I get some solid proof, I am going to file this under too much time online in the wrong forums.
Is there a correct internet forum?
That said, dismissing bigotry is a bad look, ESPECIALLY with your username.
If someone presents a bad argument, without evidence, contrary to the available evidence, sense, and reason then that argument is getting dismissed as it should be. To do otherwise is to assume that someone else is incapable of either malice or mistake. That's not listening, that's a religion.
I could have sworn the second look at that scene showed it was a lot more than just space rocks and fire. Moreover, if you're going to go down this route, why isn't everyone's lives saved with bacta tanks?
Bacta tanks can't fix dead? Or can only fix a little dead. In star wars people wind up a lot of dead.
It's been shown in earlier works that hooking yourself up to other people with the force is risky, and can lead to feedback that could kill you.
If the narrative focus of the series was ordinary people dealing with the force of unstopable nature that are the jedi that might work, but with this we have force users out the lightside/darkside yingyang something like that needs to be known or it's a butt pull.
We have been over this before. Coal. Magma. Flint. Etc. Lots of real life examples that throw doubt on this "thats not how rocks work!!!" nonsense.
Flint sparks but doesn't burn (fun fact i learned when double checking that: you can heat treat flint like you do steel to make it less brittle), magma is already melted.
It being coal or space coal doesn't help. That just moves the face palm from the writers to the writers writing the characters, who have the technology for force clone kids but not to realize that living in a spacecoal mine and using burning torches for light and Osha unapproved wiring was a bad, bad, bad idea.
Actually I have to admit I'm lost on the ysoki guy.
Once you see the trick you can't unsee it...
Thats just about any story. Otherwise you are just putting random words to paper.
In most stories they work together. Ebony and ivory, rhyme and meter, form and function. When you don't do that it's not random words it's just random things happening. Usually you can get the same thing you want with another whack or two at the writing. If your characters have no deeper meaning or motivation than serving the plot then they aren't characters.
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Somewhere in the mass of promo interviews for this utter failure of a SW series I heard Leslye Headland state (brag? sounded like a brag to me but I was not paying especially close attention) that she specifically picked writers who knew nothing about the IP.
As much as I hate to defend anything here, I believe it was one writer who wasn't familiar with it just to make sure everything would make sense to someone new to star wars.
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Also I hate how nobody can just talk about Star Wars anymore without people being weird and a bummer.
The CLone Wars is now a legendary part of canon.
I remember when it was weird, and lore breaking and people couldn't be normal about it either.
The Acolyte could have grown and improved, but instead now the lead actress is getting harrassed on social media while haters of the show crow and celebrate, particularly those that have some kind of problem with diversity in genre shows.
Also, I think tv should be allowed to be mid sometimes. Acolyte had some sweet action scenes, character arcs that appealed beyond the normal demographic of these shows, interesting twists and plots.
I think there can be disagreement on the overall execution, but I think more respect should be thrown on the level of ambition and love that was clearly heaped upon this show by its creators and contributors.
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Also I guess we'll never know who that weird green guy was at the end of the series. I'm speculating its a time-travelling adult Grogu.
It's pretty obviously Darth Plagueis.
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Also I hate how nobody can just talk about Star Wars anymore without people being weird and a bummer.
The CLone Wars is now a legendary part of canon.
I remember when it was weird, and lore breaking and people couldn't be normal about it either.
The Acolyte could have grown and improved, but instead now the lead actress is getting harrassed on social media while haters of the show crow and celebrate, particularly those that have some kind of problem with diversity in genre shows.
Also, I think tv should be allowed to be mid sometimes. Acolyte had some sweet action scenes, character arcs that appealed beyond the normal demographic of these shows, interesting twists and plots.
I think there can be disagreement on the overall execution, but I think more respect should be thrown on the level of ambition and love that was clearly heaped upon this show by its creators and contributors.
Agreed, to an extent. While I only ever found the show okay, I do get that there is a pretty wide and deep rut that star wars gets stuck in, and anything outside of it gets attacked by those who live in that rut.
Maybe we'll get Visions 3? Who knows.
I remember the very real hate aimed at Clone Wars in general and Ashoka in specific. I find it odd/potentially problematic that due to moderating practices on messageboards, there is little evidence I can pull up to prove my point outside of maaaaaaybe some rule 34 anger pron(and no, I'm not posting that here, speaking of moderation).
Somewhere in the mass of promo interviews for this utter failure of a SW series I heard Leslye Headland state (brag? sounded like a brag to me but I was not paying especially close attention) that she specifically picked writers who knew nothing about the IP.As much as I hate to defend anything here, I believe it was one writer who wasn't familiar with it just to make sure everything would make sense to someone new to star wars.
Indeed, I have heard variations on this, some truly disgusting.
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... I think tv should be allowed to be mid sometimes. Acolyte had some sweet action scenes, character arcs that appealed beyond the normal demographic of these shows, interesting twists and plots.
I don't disagree with you here but Star Wars isn't just "TV" at all, it is, for whatever reason, treated for all intents and purposes as if it is essentially the capstone Royalty of all entertainment media and for the last 25 or so years has been held to standard so unbelievably high that practically nothing could ever hold a candle to the expectations that people have for it despite it having always been, in my opinion, very remarkably "mid" as you say.
Folks can't accept that their "peak culture" SW can ever be anything except exemplary and will cry foul every time it fails to live up to that lofty standard let alone be happy with the general below-average entertainment that Acolyte turned out to be.
Couple that with the way that Disney has been treating the SW IP and, well, this is what we get. Even Andor had a fair bit of gripes about it and that series is probably the best thing that's ever been done on film with Star Wars (ever).
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The problem with the Acolyte was "it's horrificaly bad throughout, almost every single scene. The one thing it was good at was fight choreography."
Compared to say, Kenobi, which was well done, and a lot of fun, though I'd critique it as being relatively unnecessary. A good example of a decent 3 out of 4 star show.
I think part of the issue is budget.
most of the people I've heard say anything positive about it the best I heard was "It's fine" or "It's ok"
They spent way too much money on the show for it to be "just fine". It had to be Blockbuster just to reach bare minimum level of success.
Honestly I think that's a problem for Movies and TV production right now. They keep dropping huge amounts of money on things, until the only way for the thing to be a success is to be a World Wide Blockbuster.
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*Star Wars Show comes out*
THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER! DEATH TO WHOMEVER WROTE THIS! THIS ISNT LUCAS' VISION! ANYONE INVOLVED SHOULD HAVE (insert horrible thing here!) HAPPEN TO THEM! THEYVE KILLED STAR WARS!
*new Star Wars show comes out*
THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER! DEATH TO WHOMEVER WROTE THIS! THIS ISNT LUCAS' VISION! ANYONE INVOLVED SHOULD HAVE (insert terrible thing here!) HAPPEN TO THEM! THEY'VE KILLED STAR WARS!
IF ONLY IT WAS HALF AS GOOD AS THE LAST STAR WARS SHOW!!!!!
Rinse, repeat.
Forever.
It happened with the Clone Wars animated series.
It happened with Andor.
It happened with Book of Boba Fett.
It happened with Obi Wan Kenobi.
It will happen with the Acolyte.
Because of inflammatory comment nuking in forums, the only thing people looking back see are the compliments and the less inflammatory rhetoric. And the idea that everything that came before was perfect until this new thing came along will continue.
Fans will sink into fear. Into anger. Into hate. Into suffering. And will have only themselves to blame.
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"Horrifically bad" is a bit of an exaggeration when there's a pretty vocal and enthusiastic audience who loved the show.
On social media the demographics that resonated with it are primarily younger,
female and/or queer leaning.
Also there was some amazing moments that had nothing to do with fight choreography. There was stellar chemistry between the cast, and really interesting philosophical points of view about the force that only just begun to be explored.
"It wasn't for me" is a perfectly valid opinion.
"It was horrifically bad every scene" is just not true.
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It's horrifically bad.
"It wasn't me. It was my evil twin who I am just telling you about now but it couldn't be her because she died in a fire" being said in the same scene the twin was introduced isn't just bad, not just bad for daytime TV, it's something Calculon would say in an episode of all my circuits parodying daytime tv .
I don't believe there were philosophical points of view about the force. I fully believe there were things just happening and anything anyone saw was just a fluffy bunny in a cloud.
What we're told ~We have a different view of the force!
What we're shown: They force push with brute force just like jedi.
If you're going to say your use of the force is different show it. Pull a thread. Instead of pushing your opponent, have a piece of the floor break under them so they fall on their butt or something. Or a bat drops out of the ceiling and flies around their face distracting them.
It's not fans ruining this. Its writers that think oh there's space magic so nothing has to make sense. As if the world can't have both space magic, rules for the space magic, characters, plot, and science fiction physics that are at least consistent ish.
Those arent' things in the way of your story, they're what you build a story out of.
It happened with Andor.
It happened with Book of Boba Fett.
It happened with Obi Wan Kenobi.
It will happen with the Acolyte.
Eh. There's 11nty billion yahoos on the internet ONE of them is going to go over the (galaxies) edge.
But there's a bell curve around these things. And when disparate fans hit a certain level of agreement it's hard to say that it's unwarranted.
Someone DISliking andor is the outlier. Even the saltiest fans by and large like it. Every time I see disney sucks! ... oh yeah except andor.
Bobafett has problems. Mainly why the hell is he going from bounty hunter to mob boss.
Kenobi didn't tread carefully enough around established lore and was otherwise ok.
The mandalorian wasn't exactly original, it was a bounty hunter set in space. It was more bobba fett than bobba fett, but besides that the first two seasons that was well done enough to be good. No one liked the third season. For good reason.
Ahsoka has some issues. The art map was kind of hokey,some of the things didn't make sense, and Thraans plan wasn't...thraany enough. Light saber stabbings should be more fatal. But I can see a good basic story under the problems.
The Acolyte gets a level of hate I haven't seen since the last Jedi. I believe 90%+ of that is because it deserves it for being bad, 5% is star wars general grar and 5% is backlash to some really invalid criticism of the criticism. It's a lot of the same criticism because its a lot of the same underlying problems.
When I take away the problems all I see is something confusing trying to be deep. It's the emperor running around with no clothes on. (damn you brain now I'm picturing palpatine doing that)
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Also: Evil Twin story lines. In Star Wars?
Except neither twin is evil, and one might be a force clone, and they trade perspectives and do a parent trap/twin swap?
That's pulpy Star Wars baybee! That's what I buys my ticket for.
There's some valid criticism and then there's cynisim and I think too much of the Star Wars audience has drunk too much hate juice.
The plot is pulpy and you might be able to pull it off. But not when the execution is revealing it all in one breath.
Murder mysteries or whodunnits or whatppaneneds need tighter writing, not loser. Space magic existing means you have more considerations, not free range to have anything happen.
I cannot believe that the central mystery, how the hell did all the space witches die has an errant dispel magic as the answer for any other reason than it had to happen and it had to make the jedi not look too bad.
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The Last Jedi being an actually excellent movie that gets a lot of undeserved hate is a perfect parallel for The Acolyte.
But I don't believe catering to an increasingly insular and hateful fan base is a particularly good or healthy goal for any artistic franchise.
It's a perfect parallel for the Acolyte yes, but while it did get some undeserved hate for stupid bigoted reasons, the majority of the hate it got was well deserved. From the opening scene having a space battle that relied on gravity bombs (i.e. bomb propelled by gravity, not bombs that used some cool sci-fi graviton energy) to Luke's motivations and arc being weirdly distorted from everything we know about him, and never given a good reason, to plots that didn't make sense like a long non-hyperspace fleet chase, yet having an entire side mission to another planet which added nothing to the plot, to breaking the physics of hyperspace lances that don't fit into the established Star Wars canon/physics etc. There's lots of legitimate hate for that movie, just like there's lots of legitimate hate for the Acolyte for similar reasons.
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“…Traveling through hyperspace isn’t like dusting crops, boy. Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it?”
But don't mind me, quoting the Canon to explain someting that didn't need explaining because, and I can't believe this has to be reiterated:
Star Wars is Fantasy with space pulp trappings, not Science Fiction with an injection of fantasy magic.
Anyone ever noticed all the space ships seem to all be oriented in the same direction when they do those space battles? You reckon they all politely decided which way was "down"?
It's nit-picky, and silly and very little to do with what the story was about, and the themes the story engages with.
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but don't mind me, quoting the Canon to explain something that didn't need explaining because
Yes. It would end your trip . Not that it would rip the star apart. So the cannon does NOT suggest that the holdo manuever should have worked from the get go. Do not drive your carr off a cliff= you will die. Not that you will blow up the cliff.
The fact is that they build those giant ships for a reason. The build the death star for a reason. They have star WARS for a reason. If there is ONLY the out of universe explanation that they die to be entertaining with no in universe explanation, then every character is a blithering idiot for NOT putting a brick on the accelerator aiming a row boat at the death star and hopping out.
Star wars has science fiction elements that run on science fiction. It has fantasy elements that run on fantasy. It has magitech that blends the lines between both. There is no platonic "is" for it to be.
The science fiction elements run on science fiction. There are space ships and they break down and require repairs and flying just like any other ship.
There are space wizards that have a default skillset but can also do nearly anything else as the plot requires. But as a narrative tool you really need to set up or hint at new things.
Anyone ever noticed all the space ships seem to all be oriented in the same direction when they do those space battles? You reckon they all politely decided which way was "down"?
Just because there is a level of immersion that can be overdone does not mean that no level of immersion is required. Sweet and spicy are both good but we don't serve bowls of sugar and cumin powder as meals.
What would the reaction be if the plot was "The witches all died because someone used a spoon with their right hand." I mean its magic therefore every nonsensical thing works equally well right?
There's a balance here that these writers aren't observing.
It's nit-picky, and silly and very little to do with what the story was about, and the themes the story engages with.
Good science fiction and fantasy story engages the themes USING the science fiction and fantasy elements. Good fiction uses characters and personalities to help the plot unfold and has the characters react to the plot which in turn alters the characters with the plot. It's a dialog, a dance, a back and forth conversation.
Jedi and acolyte have the same plot down writing style and I hate that. I hate that people think its ok for nothing to make sense because science fiction and fantasy. It's a mockery of the genres.
The point isn't that people don't have to stop making sense just because space ships and dragons, the point is that even with spaceships and dragons and weird fuzzy aliens people are still people (even fuzzy alien people). And if you can't understand that you will alienate the fans and it is not their fault they didn't like a badly written story.
The plot is pulpy and you might be able to pull it off. But not when the execution is revealing it all in one breath.
Murder mysteries or whodunnits or whatppaneneds need tighter writing, not loser. Space magic existing means you have more considerations, not free range to have anything happen.
I cannot believe that the central mystery, how the hell did all the space witches die has an errant dispel magic as the answer for any other reason than it had to happen and it had to make the jedi not look too bad.
Again, the weaknesses of the weirdo force magic they use has been shown before. It's not good to hook yourself up with the force unless you're using battle meditation. And even then if something happens to the meditator, people go into something akin to shock.
Again, the weaknesses of the weirdo force magic they use has been shown before. It's not good to hook yourself up with the force unless you're using battle meditation. And even then if something happens to the meditator, people go into something akin to shock.
1) Where
2) If that's how that works it makes it a TERRIBLE idea. You are fighting people you know are trained force users. That's like trying to fight the human torch with a flame thrower. Its going to be more dangerous to you than him.
A whathappened like this has similar rules to a murder mystery, even though most of the characters know what happened the audience doesn't. As a surprise enemy tactic it might work, as what is arguably the central premise of the show it doesn't.
Anyone ever noticed all the space ships seem to all be oriented in the same direction when they do those space battles? You reckon they all politely decided which way was "down"?
Probably because that's what looked best for the movie, right? I mean, right?
Again, the weaknesses of the weirdo force magic they use has been shown before. It's not good to hook yourself up with the force unless you're using battle meditation. And even then if something happens to the meditator, people go into something akin to shock.1) Where
2) If that's how that works it makes it a TERRIBLE idea. You are fighting people you know are trained force users. That's like trying to fight the human torch with a flame thrower. Its going to be more dangerous to you than him.
A whathappened like this has similar rules to a murder mystery, even though most of the characters know what happened the audience doesn't. As a surprise enemy tactic it might work, as what is arguably the central premise of the show it doesn't.
1) Numerous places man it's a holiday weekend dont make me do work.
2) Lots of things have weaknesses, it doesn't mean it's a terrible idea. Otherwise it's time to throw out episode 4 wholesale as they couldn't cover up an exhaust port with a piece of plywood.
1) Numerous places man it's a holiday weekend dont make me do work.
I could follow the plot of Ahsoka and still have the flannel sheets from the 70s. If death by dispel magic isn't a thing I've seen, the audience probably needed chekovs classroom or something.
As a side character reference it works. As a main plot point, its a butt pull.
2) Lots of things have weaknesses, it doesn't mean it's a terrible idea. Otherwise it's time to throw out episode 4 wholesale as they couldn't cover up an exhaust port with a piece of plywood.
Ply wood tends to be pretty bad at letting exhaust ports exhaust. An exhaust port needs an unfettered access to the Vacuum of space.
Although if you don't believe that, it could have been an inside job....
1) Numerous places man it's a holiday weekend dont make me do work.
I could follow the plot of Ahsoka and still have the flannel sheets from the 70s. If death by dispel magic isn't a thing I've seen, the audience probably needed chekovs classroom or something.
As a side character reference it works. As a main plot point, its a butt pull.
2) Lots of things have weaknesses, it doesn't mean it's a terrible idea. Otherwise it's time to throw out episode 4 wholesale as they couldn't cover up an exhaust port with a piece of plywood.Ply wood tends to be pretty bad at letting exhaust ports exhaust. An exhaust port needs an unfettered access to the Vacuum of space.
Although if you don't believe that, it could have been an inside job....
I guess you get to spend the holiday weekend going over every bit of star wars lore. Yay.
Plywood is breathable. I think.
Plywood is breathable. I think.
It's not, so if you're going to test that use a bothan.
Plywood is breathable. I think.It's not, so if you're going to test that use a bothan.
...should they have just slapped a bothan on the outside of the death star and called it a day? Hm.
...should they have just slapped a bothan on the outside of the death star and called it a day? Hm.
Not A bothan.
What do they come in. Packs. Herds? Murders? Flocks?
Head cannon
Vader "I need the deathstar completed in a month
Head engineer " We have a problem with this exhaust port having a straight line to the reactor core. We need like 4 smaller ones if we're going to put a U bend in gerk gurggle ugerrrk.....thud.
New Head engineer " ... three weeks tops! No problem. "
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All I know is if I don't get a Darth Bane TV show, they are seriously under-estimating the appeal.
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All I know is if I don't get a Darth Bane TV show, they are seriously under-estimating the appeal.
Maybe he becomes an accountant and suffers the insanity of cubical work in the empire...
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You guys suck...
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What I really want most is new characters, set after Return of the Jedi, in the Mandalorian/Ashoka era. I don't want more prequels, return to existing characters earlier in their lives, etc.
Ideally, time travel will happen and negate the entire Episode 7-9, and then they can keep advancing the timeline from a Mando/Ashoka era set of events. I don't expect the later to happen, especially not with a new movie planned with Daisy Ridley, but that's still what I want.
I wouldn't mind Time travel fixing the prequels...
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Every character in the show (unless they had a profound pervasive developmental disability and I missed that) was evil.
I almost agree with you on this point, but there were 2 exceptions. 1) The Yoda post credits cameo, he didn't say or do anything, but wasn't evil at least. And 2) the senator investigating the Jedi (not to mention a good actor) was the true hero of the show.
EDIT: Oh, and 3) the not on screen technician who created the Jedi metal detectors which could sense disturbances in the force, since none of the Jedi themselves in the show seemed to be able to. He was a pure hearted hero who clearly didn't get the credit he deserved.