Devise Stratagem and Athletic Strategies, and escape with from grapple.+0 Str,+2dex, +4 Int


Rules Discussion


Rule question:
My character is able to use her Int as the state bonus when using the Stataigm because of Athletic Strategies to do a grapple. When I want to maintain it on the second round, I just need to spend an action without a role. Since I am using Statagum, I need to take two actions (vs the typical 1) to make the Athletic DC to use my Int bonus, as I figure out how to hold the person effectively (action 1) and then apply it.(Action 2) ; At this time, I would add my required Situation and Status effect (and weapon)

If I only spend 1 action like most people, then I would use my weaker Str bonus and add whatever other bonuses and negatives apply.

However, if I am using a light or Finese (Compbat Grapnel) weapon as part of the grapple procedure, I could use my Dex and add whatever bonuses apply.

If I only spend 1 action but claim Assurance. the DC has no bonuses or penalties. To be used--> when I am trapped in heavy armour, wounded, sickened, prone, etc.


Chelsea Williams wrote:

Rule question:

My character is able to use her Int as the state bonus when using the Stataigm because of Athletic Strategies to do a grapple. When I want to maintain it on the second round, I just need to spend an action without a role.

How are you maintaining a grapple without a roll? Grapples normally last until the end of your next turn.

Chelsea Williams wrote:
If I only spend 1 action like most people, then I would use my weaker Str bonus and add whatever other bonuses and negatives apply.

Yes you need to use your Devise a Stratagem again when you roll the check again or you are stuck with your STR score.

It is not completely clear what your Athletic DC is defensively. Some GMs may let you use your INT ability score if/when the grabbed individual tries to escape, others won't.


To maintain a grapple in the second round, one only needs to take action to maintain the active roll after the initial attack, which belongs to the person trying to escape.
Hence, to maintain an int state, two actions have to be used to activate the Int statistic.

Source Rage of Elements pg. 232
Requirements The monster's last action was a successful Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or the monster has a creature grabbed or restrained; Effect If used after a Strike, the monster attempts to Grapple the creature using the body part it attacked with. This attempt neither applies nor counts toward the creature's multiple attack penalty.

The monster can instead use Grab and choose one creature it's grabbing or restraining with an appendage that has Grab to automatically extend that condition to the end of the monster's next turn.


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Chelsea Williams wrote:

...

However, if I am using a light or Finese (Compbat Grapnel) weapon as part of the grapple procedure, I could use my Dex and add whatever bonuses apply.
...

No you can't use Dex to Grapple even with a finesse weapon. (I'm unclear why you mentioned light weapons since Bulk isn't relevant here.)

The finesse ability only applies to attack rolls.

PC, page 282 wrote:

Finesse

You can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls using this melee weapon. You still calculate damage using Strength.

Since Grapple, despite being an attack, uses an athletics check rather than an attack roll, finesse doesn't let you replace Str with Dex for a Grapple.

The distinction between being an attack and using an attack roll was clarified in the errata for the first printing of the CRB.

Page 446: Attack Rolls. There was some confusion as to whether skill checks with the attack trait (such as Grapple or Trip) are also attack rolls at the same time. They are not. To make this clear, add this sentence to the beginning of the definition of attack roll "When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll."

To clarify the different rules elements involved:

An attack is any check that has the attack trait. It applies and increases the multiple attack penalty.

An attack roll is one of the core types of checks in the game (along with saving throws, skill checks, and Perception checks). They are used for Strikes and spell attacks, and traditionally target Armor Class.

Some skill actions have the attack trait, specifically Athletics actions such as Grapple and Trip. You still make a skill check with these skills, not an attack roll.

The multiple attack penalty applies on those skill actions as well. As it says later on in the definition of attack roll "Striking multiple times in a turn has diminishing returns. The multiple attack penalty (detailed on page 446) applies to each attack after the first, whether those attacks are Strikes, special attacks like the Grapple action of the Athletics skill, or spell attack rolls."

So (except for the Athletic Strategist feat allowing the use of Int for Grapple, Shove, Disarm, or Trip) everyone has to use Str for Grapple, Shove, Disarm, Trip, and even Ranged Trip.

So a fighter would use Dex to Strike someone with a bola, but Str to trip them with a bola. :)

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Note that this language was carried over to the Player Core.

PC, page 402 wrote:

Attack Rolls

When you use a Strike action or make a spell attack, you attempt a check called an attack roll.
...

So the rules still work this way in the remaster.


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Chelsea Williams wrote:

...

Source Rage of Elements pg. 232
Requirements The monster's last action was a successful Strike that lists Grab in its damage entry, or the monster has a creature grabbed or restrained; Effect If used after a Strike, the monster attempts to Grapple the creature using the body part it attacked with. This attempt neither applies nor counts toward the creature's multiple attack penalty.

The monster can instead use Grab and choose one creature it's grabbing or restraining with an appendage that has Grab to automatically extend that condition to the end of the monster's next turn.

The rules that you cite here are for the Monster Ability called Grab. Those don't apply to players.

Players need to use the Grapple Rules if they want to use the Grapple action.


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Thank you for the responses from everyone and for explaining why I am wrong.

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