Looks like advanced alchemy and quick alchemy are separated now; quick alchemy is now versatile vial which is becoming a replenishable (possibly focus point like) mechanic. Reworked additives and new feats too. It's a good taste but I'm still curious what this shapes up to bring in play. They didn't mention proficiencies so no idea on changes there. What do y'all think?
(Is there an online source where people can look at this, or does it only exist in the brains of people who attended?)
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/GfNJgYr0Tj
Here you go
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/s/GfNJgYr0Tj
Here you go
Linkified
Anything about the champion changes? My buddy saw the Player Core 2 at a Licensing convention in Vegas, but they wouldn't let him read it because he didn't want to open a PF2 store. He was there for his other businesses, but came across the Paizo booth or whoever had access to the PC2. Got a picture of the Player Core 2 cover. It looks finished and ready to roll.
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new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
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new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
They said pursue a lead is getting "clarified" like recall knowledge which is a more substantial buff than some might consider. It should be a lot easier to enter combats with a lead lined up which should mean getting to DaS a free action more. Also, getting to choose between attacks and buffed skill checks is a welcome bonus (still not much to do with terrible rolls, but now lowish rolls might be better spent on a recall knowledge, intimidate, feint, stealth, or athletics roll. Small changes that could have a big impact. The feat brushup won't hurt either
There is another googledoc to follow here
Proficiency
“Another question: How are the proficiencies looking like for the Alchemist? Are they the same? Did they change to be more like a martial character?”
James Case 「he/him」 — Today at 4:05 PM
No comment on proficiencies since enough has changed internally with the structure of the class that it likely won't be very contextualized. We do hope the remastered alchemist is both easier to grasp and has a more consistent playstyle at the table, though!This is the #1 question they have to answer! Add the context and tell us! Lets imagine some options because there are only a few of them:
1.) We gave the commander treatment of martial to hit and legendary class DC. (YASSSS! All those cumulative probability items that require a hit and save will be usable!)
2.) We gave martial to hit and nothing else (YAY!)
3.) We gave martial to hit and scaled back bomb damage to compensate (happily optimistic that the cut backs weren't too bad)
4.) We gave a janky to hit scaling that does give master to hit but is delayed for no good reason and leaves a bunch of hell levels like the warpriest (I hope not, that is literally the worst option you could have done!)
5.) We kept expert to hit but gave legendary to class DC and it scales like a caster now and added more save based bombs (I hope not since we can see some remaster bombs and they are still 'attack rolls to hit', but this is at least significantly preferable to option #4 and I'll stick with bottled monstrosities/any new items that don't require to hit rolls).
If I had to bet, I think we're getting #4 because literally any other option would have made immediate sense with very little context needed. That may make me a pessimist but they had to know everyone would ask for that specific answer since there is has been a forum/reddit post like once a week since remaster was...
Yea, the current martial and class DC proficiencies with master martial slapped on at 19 doesn't really do much to change the play experience. Maybe proficiencies are research field based?
Hey, Fuse Stance is level 16 now. That might make it usable.
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new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
That class is hard to modify. It's built for a specific type of campaign and for that type of campaign, it's very powerful. Besides moving some of its key feats to lower level, not sure what else I'd do for it. It's a class that does what it's supposed to do very well, but that function is limited to certain types of campaigns.
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There is another googledoc to follow here
Proficiency
This is the #1 question they have to answer! Add the context and tell us! Lets imagine some options because there are only a few of them:“Another question: How are the proficiencies looking like for the Alchemist? Are they the same? Did they change to be more like a martial character?”
James Case 「he/him」 — Today at 4:05 PM
No comment on proficiencies since enough has changed internally with the structure of the class that it likely won't be very contextualized. We do hope the remastered alchemist is both easier to grasp and has a more consistent playstyle at the table, though!
The fact that they don't want to talk about it makes me think that proficiency is probably staying the same. Like, "we finally made it so alchemists can effectively use their weapons properly" seems like a big enough deal to mention if that's what actually happened. While 'no comment' lets them push back any negativity toward the full release where the full class might paint a different picture (or at least the extra noise might drown out the complaints).
That class is hard to modify. It's built for a specific type of campaign and for that type of campaign, it's very powerful. Besides moving some of its key feats to lower level, not sure what else I'd do for it. It's a class that does what it's supposed to do very well, but that function is limited to certain types of campaigns.new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
Disagree. The class is barely usable and even in its optional niche relies on a huge amount of GM fiat to function effectively, while sacrificing much more than other skill-heavy classes and struggling heavily in many types of typical campaign. That's something no other class really deals with and is an especially bad look for a class that's now part of core.
Hey, Fuse Stance is level 16 now. That might make it usable.
Definitely. Hopefully, there are more ways to switch stances and Stance Savant became a core feature. For a class that is all about mobility and flow, Monks became quite rigid, borderline clunky, when it came to Stances.
For alchemists we still don't know what they'll choose to do with Mutagens since those should be in PC2 as well.
If they have removed, or at least severly weakned the negative effects from them, then that's maybe ok with them staying at their current proficiency levels, since they will at least have access to a reliable +1 to hit from there, which is about half a proficiency.
Howl of the Wild is a Remaster Book and it has a few mutagens in it. Examining those might tell you what the new expected baseline is.
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new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
Did they explicitly state that a Champion does not need to be sanctified ?
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Did they explicitly state that a Champion does not need to be sanctified ?new causes, some of which are sanctification specific and some which aren't, divine ally is getting expanded, but mounts are being moved to a feat tree. Your starting devotion spell is now something you pick. Litanies and Oaths are removed for space reasons.
Worst news out of the con is that apparently Investigators are only getting minor updates and clarifications. Really getting the impression Paizo regrets writing that class.
Yea,
Grandeur cause needs holy
Inequity cause needs unholy
Justice cause does not require sanctification
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You all might be over thinking it.
If it is the case that the proficiency is increasing (either to full martial or something more akin to guardian/warpriest), but also that splash trait on bombs is changing to only work on successes (per player core one definition), but there are also ways in class to add the failure result back to bombs, and perhaps also affect weapon attacks with poison…then just saying “they are getting an increase,” or anything that sounds like that, is going to blow up in their faces when people interpret it to mean that everything is the same as now and they get proficiency increases.
Like anything more complicated than just “it is staying the same” or “it is increasing” might not have felt worth dealing with the blow back of people getting outsized expectations around.
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Just a heads up not to get to optimism too high. (I'm that guy who did a full Alch remaster (that has playable modules))
The Guardian is being playtested at Alchemist accuracy, even when so many G's already knew to Trip instead of Strike. That's another lump of evidence as to why I also suspect that Alch weapon proficiency is changing. I do not understand what Paizo is thinking when it comes to leaving Strikes so bad when things like Trip are there, but they are consistent with that.
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On splitting prep items from Q-Alch:
People wanted it to be easier to play, they can still create items at the start of the day, they now have versatile vials which take place of reagents– you can make things fast as you need them, and they can be replenished in exploration mode. You can also just throw the vials on their own.
There was a big hope that prep items could be made as exploration mode activity, and Alch would not be stuck will spellcaster's once per day prep. That seems about as de-confirmed as it could be.
This split may be a bad sign that Q-Alch items, even whatever new ones are locked to the Research Fields, will likely maintain that bad action economy. Right now, the primary thing that keeps Alchemist genuinely good, is the ability to set up a Manual Dex familiar and use Independent to get 1-A uses of items like Soothing/Numbing Tonics, ect. Even the low-power Elixirs of Life are absolutely decent as a 1-A touch heal. It's when they require 2-A that the elixirs are simply bad, due to both the effect per action, and for the change in opportunity cost (no 2A spells, activities, ect)
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Optimistically:
The special items will be good enough to be worth 2-A. This will mean that using Q-Alch for anything else will still be an obviously bad option most of the time. It also does not give me reason to hope the "unusable next turn" quirk of Quick Alchemy is going to be changed, as splitting that cost across turns would make it more usable (but it's not worth spending a whole Class Feat on).
Pessimistically:
Even those new items are not going to be worth much, and some new safety catch will be placed to limit long-buff items from being handed out every 10min.
Right now, there's a weird Alchemist balancing quirk around Quick Alchemy and how it's the way for Alchs to get scaling DC.
Most obvious with the lozenges, they use a LAGGING DC even right at unlock. This means you can get 2:1 with a -DC, or you can spend 1:1 to Q-Alch and ready (mouth) them to get a scaling DC. If they add a new limit to Q-Alch, this will likely break.
Because without a new restraint on Q-Alch, all the 1 hour or more items cause issues with pre-buffing. A single 10min free item would invite the sort of shenanigans pf2e was intended to remove. Why not spend an hour huddled around the alch for free all-day buffs? This starts at L1 with Antiplauges, and by L8, you add all day Darkvision.
This means that Q-Alch is likely going to be nerfed.
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Which leads us to the #1 gameplay changing question, which they have been radio silent on.
Will all prep items get a scaling DC? If so, you may see genuinely oddball Alchemists using things like Sun Dazzlers or Crackling Bubble Gum. As mentioned, all the unique items typically lag behind Alchemist's class DC even when on-level, making them worse than a novelty in actual gameplay. For the brief times I attempted them, I was a liability to my team's survival.
Without that fix being shouted from the rooftops, I do not have any reason to think Paizo currently plan for it to be implemented. That may be the biggest loss of potential to the class. Even a new way to prep an item with a 1:1 ratio, just to get the scaling DC, would be a big help to those Alchs who use such items.
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Right now, my Chiurgeons have mostly found a good rhythm using things like Sure Strike into persistent damage bombs for 2A as my "alchemist damage." Each turn, I attempt to use 1 (familiar) handoff item, bomb, elixir, ect. This is mixed with cantrips and the occasional low R spell like Grease. Quick Alchemy does have a place, mostly for non-preppable buffs like energy mutagens use for defense when stumbling into an elemental foe, an extra drakeheart mutagen for a party member (as a prebuff), or an oddball utility item (typically out of combat).
With the change to recharging vials, I do worry that the ability to leave some reagents for later, non-foreseeable buffing will be deleted from the class.
To be honest, that "preview" has me very worried. The best case may be that Paizo have completely forgotten that Alch has a wide selection of multi-hour buffs, and neglected to add an new restriction to prevent such buffing.
They have not appeared to have addressed the contradictory Splash rules they released in the Remaster, so who knows.
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And I also am sad to hear that Investigator was neglected. In my opinion, the current Alchemist is the prime example of jank, but once you get an item-passing familiar, understand all those rules quirks (stacking various persistent damages), ect, the Alchemist *is* a class that can pull its weight in combat.
The way the Investigator is written mandates that everything keys off one class specific action; this not only forces them to spam DaS, but it is not possible to buff DaS with anything outside the class (Insight Coffee is the exception that proves this rule).
In comparison, Rogues key off a condition, and the class adds new ways to inflict it.
Unless that core changes, the Investigator is screwed.
Not going to derail the thread, but while Alchemist has the most... spectacularly misfiring class design in a fireworks kind of way, the Investigator is a silent cripple, limping along with few advocating on its behalf. The notion that the community chatter behind the Alchemist was referenced is a little sad, and makes me wish I had made a rant thread or two.
It would have been doable to give Investigator a Thaumaturge-style pseudo-skill that could be interacted with from outside effects.
Even just baking in or lowering the level of the Suspect of Opportunity feat (can Pursue a Lead as a Reaction to hostility, how you get the free action DaS) would have been a *massive* band-aid for the class. As is, I honestly recommend everyone avoid playing the class in any game that is mostly below L10, precisely because of how Investigator is in a tier of its own when fighting a non-pursued foe.
Probably they are just saving stuff for later to make those posts revealing some stuff about the remastered classes when closer to the release date of the book. I think the very least we could expect is legendary DC scaling, and probably warpriest martial progression for weapons, but clearly they aren't doing a commander with both martial and caster scaling for DCs based on that response. Whatever ends up happening, I at least hope to have a viable way to build a more "martial" alchemist, even if that involves becoming a mutagen addict.
It's at least an improvement over the current version, so I'm happy to kick back and see what the final version is. Making "on-the-fly" prep refreshable and not trade off with daily prep is a big quality of life improvement.
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What worries me are the lines about each Research Field being able to do something special with Versatile Vials. Toxicologist can make a poison, Chirurgeon can make a healing thing.
It's sounding like they've crippled Quick Alchemy, and if that's the case, I am not going to be happy. One of the things I've absolutely loved about the Class is the ability to pull out anything I need if I have a Batch free.
Any word if they improved the swashbuckler?
What worries me are the lines about each Research Field being able to do something special with Versatile Vials. Toxicologist can make a poison, Chirurgeon can make a healing thing.
It's sounding like they've crippled Quick Alchemy, and if that's the case, I am not going to be happy. One of the things I've absolutely loved about the Class is the ability to pull out anything I need if I have a Batch free.
It could be a focus point quick alchemy but research fields making their specialty add extra sauce to the item. Who knows but that's a possible positive spin on that line from them
Fingers crossed alchemist is the first class sneak peak blog in the coming week or two
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I also am happy for quality of life improvements and their promise that the class will be simpler to play. I honestly think that's its biggest problem isn't proficiency but complexity.
What worries me are the lines about each Research Field being able to do something special with Versatile Vials. Toxicologist can make a poison, Chirurgeon can make a healing thing.
It's sounding like they've crippled Quick Alchemy, and if that's the case, I am not going to be happy. One of the things I've absolutely loved about the Class is the ability to pull out anything I need if I have a Batch free.
Yeah, I picked up on that as well. I'll be sorry for your loss there, but I also think Quick Alchemy was a big part of the power budget and complexity burden on the class. That complexity made alchemist really not feel like a core class.
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I also am happy for quality of life improvements and their promise that the class will be simpler to play. I honestly think that's its biggest problem isn't proficiency but complexity.
Yeah, I picked up on that as well. I'll be sorry for your loss there, but I also think Quick Alchemy was a big part of the power budget and complexity burden on the class. That complexity made alchemist really not feel like a core class.What worries me are the lines about each Research Field being able to do something special with Versatile Vials. Toxicologist can make a poison, Chirurgeon can make a healing thing.
It's sounding like they've crippled Quick Alchemy, and if that's the case, I am not going to be happy. One of the things I've absolutely loved about the Class is the ability to pull out anything I need if I have a Batch free.
That moment to moment versatility was higher than caster versatility (provided you scoured as many formulas as possible). This necessitated crippling alchemist impact (damage and likelihood of applying conditions). Crippling that moment to moment versatility (prep versatility will still be served with morning brewing) is the best news I've heard; it probably means alchemist will be allowed to pack a wallop now, at least compared to the previous version
I hope there'll be a feat to improve the width of items you can produce with Versatile Vials, some Alchemists having one Research Field while producing another Research Field's items more frequently (Chirurgeon and Mutagenist, in general).
I think most Alchemists would fine with the loss of Quick Alchemy if we were able to reagent-craft Advanced Alchemy throughout the day.
Right now, Alchemists are both prepared and spontaneous/repertoire. Preemptive and reactive.
If Quick Alchemy is gone, we loose the ability to create any niche items in reaction to what we see.
This will *dramatically* narrow the number of items that anyone ever uses. No one is going to prepare specific silver-bullet items on the absurdly rare chance the situation happens. Right now, they are sometimes used reactively via Quick Alchemy. You can leave 2-3 reagents unspent, then have an entire book of possibilities to have available during exploration mode.
If Quick Alchemy is deleted with no way to make items throughout the day, that is a huge change to the class, and in the wrong direction.
It is such an unnecessary issue. All they have to do is make Advanced Alchemy an exploration activity with one phrase to say that you auto perform it during daily prep. Even if the base, feat-less version requires an hour of non-combat time throughout the day, that will absolutely be the difference between crafting some Focus Cathartics or other condition curatives, and the party just walking home and ending the day early.
From an emotionless mechanical perspective, that loss of reactive problem-solving is very much game changing to what the class can do.
Crippling that moment to moment versatility (prep versatility will still be served with morning brewing) is the best news I've heard; it probably means alchemist will be allowed to pack a wallop now, at least compared to the previous version
I'm afraid that I do not agree. Just because it opens room for an increase, does not mean they will fill it. This is the same group that thought Guardian was ready for playtesting, and have released far too many alchemical items that are completely, "who would ever make this?" dead on arrival.
Furthermore, due to the action cost of Quick Alchemy, it was rarely "smart" to ever use in combat. Quick Alchemy bombs are literally 1/2 the effect / action cost of L1 Q-Bomber. That is a huuuuge gap for Additives to overcome to even consider a Q-Bomb to have parity with a prepped one.
Quick Alchemy thrived in allowing the oddball items to be used at all; things that the GM had to think about and consider, like gluing up a machine, being able to read any language, or how the NPC reacts to an Alchemist pouring out a vial onto a table as suddenly manifests into a charcuterie spread of cheese and salami.
If that is gone, it is a huge loss to the fun of the class.
Any word if they improved the swashbuckler?Bravado trait actions that make it easier to build up panache during difficult fights and a new Trickery based subclass for it.
Pretty interested to see what the Trickery swash is like. One of my more memorable PF1 characters was a Dirty Tricks Spheres of Might Rogue.
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I also am happy for quality of life improvements and their promise that the class will be simpler to play. I honestly think that's its biggest problem isn't proficiency but complexity.
Yeah, I picked up on that as well. I'll be sorry for your loss there, but I also think Quick Alchemy was a big part of the power budget and complexity burden on the class. That complexity made alchemist really not feel like a core class.What worries me are the lines about each Research Field being able to do something special with Versatile Vials. Toxicologist can make a poison, Chirurgeon can make a healing thing.
It's sounding like they've crippled Quick Alchemy, and if that's the case, I am not going to be happy. One of the things I've absolutely loved about the Class is the ability to pull out anything I need if I have a Batch free.
Logan's exact words:
"So now the Alchemist has two different, uh, kinda pools. They still have a bunch of items they can create at the start of the day, but they no longer have to kinda decide how to balance the items they make at the start of the day VS ones they make during battle and, uh, exploration with Quick Alchemy.
Instead they have a pool of Versatile Vials. Uh, which kinda take the place of your reagents, and they are things you can turn into alchemical items really quickly, and also, in exploration you can replenish them. So we wanted a way that the Alchemist can kinda keep doing alchemy all day, and had kind of a more stable base to them.
So that is gonna kinda be your main ability. The versatile vials can also be used on their own. You can just throw a versatile vial like an acid bomb, basically. It's a little different, but each Research Field also has its own specific way it can use them. Like the Toxicologist can make a poison, and the Chirurgeon can make a healing item, and there's a kind of like a special limitation on there so you have infinite healing basically. But those kind of special uses will mean your Research Field is kind of useful all the time."
Linking the VOD at 3:26:24 if you want to hear Logan's whole thoughts on the Alchemist, and everyone's thoughts on the whole class.