We're running through Ruins of Azlant (RoA) a few issues recently came up that we need help understanding. The party is an Unchained Rogue, Seeker of the Lost Paladin, and a Geo-Air Kinetic(ist) Knight. They were given Tier 1 Mythic and are using Automatic Bonus Progression because RoA has extremely limited commerce for such a long AP. Since they are getting higher in level, Dispel Magic is now starting to come up. Here are the questions:
1) Can you target dispel magic at a kinetic whip after it has been completed or can it only be countered at the time of casting?
2) If dispel magic is cast on the geo kineticist with the following active effects, what would be affected first? For this purpose, assume they all have the same effective Caster Level.
Kinetic Whip (post-attack), Kinetic Form, Flesh of Stone (Defense Utility), Celerity (aka Haste), Basic Aerokinesis (constant effect), Wings of Air (constant Fly), Revenant Armor, Permanency: Arcane Sight, and Permanency: Reduce Person. For note, the only worn magic items are Slippers of the Triton and the ABP Enhancement on their armor and shield. We ended up agreeing on Last In, First Out until we find an official answer.
3) Would dispel magic or Mythic Mercy (break enchantment) disrupt a faceless stalker's Change Shape (Su) ability?
Since the kinetic whip persists until the beginning of your next turn it can be dispelled after it is formed. But all that would do would be to prevent the kinetiicist from making AoO. Dispelling it does not prevent the kineticist from forming a new one.
When using a targeted dispel magic you usually go by the spell with the highest caster level first. If the spells all have the same caster level most GM’s will roll a dice or use some other random method to choose which one is checked first. But the caster of the dispel magic wants they can choose to target a specific spell or effect. If they choose that option only that spell or effect is subject to being dispelled. In combat most characters I have encountered are trying to bring down a specific effect, so use the second option.
The Faceless Stalker’s change shape is a (SU) so is not subject to dispel magic. Break Enchantment does not seem to be an enchantment, transmutation or a curse, so that probably does not work either. Break enchantment also specifies if the spell cannot be dispelled it only works if the spell is 5th level or lower. This seems to indicate it works on spells and spells like abilities. Which would mean it does not work on change shape, as that is a (SU).
so... a caster can generally cast a spell whenever he's got the actions to do so. That applies to Dispel Magic. Whether the spell does anything is a different story. Spell requirements have to be met and then a valid target/AoE chosen.
For class abilities look at the type; Su, Sp, Ex. That tells you how to treat it. A caster may not know that tidbit about a target and needs to roll know(local) for humanoids.
Commentary
There are lots of spells! It is highly probable that there's 1-3 spells that can twiddle with whatever condition or state you can name. Dispel Magic is probably one of the less effective spells in combat unless the target has SR and/or several active spells. Try Fireball, Bestow Curse, Glitterdust, persistent Ear-piercing Scream...
Supernatural Abilities: These can't be disrupted in combat and generally don't provoke attacks of opportunity. They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas.
Dispel magic can affect spell like abilities, but does not work on supernatural abilities. Change Shape is a supernatural ability so cannot be dispelled or counterspelled.
Dispel Magic:A3 A){targeted} end an ongoing spell (effect), B){targeted} suppress a magic item, C) counterspell (during target's casting/activation action) a spell. Grtr Disp Mag has the AoE dispel.
Kineticist, note Elemental Focus(Su), Wild Talents(varies), Burn(Ex), Kinetic Blast(Sp), Gather Power(Su), Infusion(Su), Elemental Defense(Su), Elemental Overflow(Ex), Infusion Specialization(Su), Metakinesis(Su), Internal Buffer(Su), Expanded Element(Su), Supercharge(Su), Composite Specialization(Su), Metakinetic Master(Su), Omnikinesis(Su). So with so many "(Su)"s there's not alot of powers Dispel Magic can affect after creation. For Wild Talents, Wild talents are typically spell-like abilities (though some are supernatural abilities)., so Sp (SLA) unless noted as an Su. There are no (Su) abilities directly listed on the Kineticist Elements page.
Quick review;
(Ex) not magical.
(Sp) subject to spell resistance and dispel magic (can be dispelled but not used to counterspell or be counterspelled). don't function in anti-magic AoE.
(Su) not subject to spell resistance, dispel magic, counterspell. don't function in anti-magic AoE.
> 1) When can dispel magic affect a kinetic whip?
Wild Talent(Sp), Kinetic Blade-> Kinetic Whip. The kinetic blade deals your kinetic blast damage... and this damage is of the same type as your kinetic blast’s damage. (thus reinforcing it is an Sp). Thus when created a whip can be dispelled.
> 2) dispel magic order of effects?
(see Dispel Magic). IF they are all at the same caster level it is going to be random. Magic Items typically have lower caster level based on their creation requirements.
> 3) Would dispel magic or Mythic Mercy (break enchantment) disrupt a faceless stalker's Change Shape (Su) ability?
First off, Mythic is a bit wonky so GM interpretation is going to be involved. It's soap opera time.
As Change Shape is (Su), Dispel Magic is ineffective.
Break Enchantment:A5 enchantments, transmutations, and curses and polymorph spells are a transmutation. If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower. Change Shape is an Su and not a spell but it does reference various polymorphs so I'd check to see if the spell is 5th spell level or lower.
As we are in Mythic territory, Mythic Mercy(Su) When you use the mercy paladin class feature, your caster level check to remove curses, diseases, and poisons automatically succeeds unless the affliction is from a mythic source. If you expend one use of mythic power when using a mercy, you add break enchantment to its effect, using your paladin level as your caster level. You must have the mercy class feature to select this ability. Sadly no extra language for non-mythic transmutations so it's no better than the spell.
As you are mythic you should consider Game Balance and, ahemm, heroic effects. True Form:A4 is a lesser spell that works on Change Shape(Su) but this ability is a mercy and not an attack and you have to consider if the deity would intercede in such a way.
A decent number of abilities and spells need to be read as their description have the details and variances occur.
so... a caster can generally cast a spell whenever he's got the actions to do so. That applies to Dispel Magic. Whether the spell does anything is a different story. Spell requirements have to be met and then a valid target/AoE chosen.
For class abilities look at the type; Su, Sp, Ex. That tells you how to treat it. A caster may not know that tidbit about a target and needs to roll know(local) for humanoids.
Commentary
There are lots of spells! It is highly probable that there's 1-3 spells that can twiddle with whatever condition or state you can name. Dispel Magic is probably one of the less effective spells in combat unless the target has SR and/or several active spells. Try Fireball, Bestow Curse, Glitterdust, persistent Ear-piercing Scream...
The issue here is that the AP includes very odd stat blocks in the last book. It took a bit to understand but there are "Ulat-Kini Troops" that have Volley and Dispel Magic abilities. It turns out these stat blocks represent multiple creatures and the dispel magic is described as the result of magic users in the troop units. Dispel Magic can be used once per round and the Kineticist is (literally) the largest threat.
The issue was not knowing what would get dispelled first and not knowing if DM could target the Kinetic Whip (which I now know it can). The kineticist does large, area-sweeping attacks and tends to take out large "boss-level" mobs in one or two hits so I'm trying to understand how to handle him since this AP does NOT seem to be built with Kineticists in mind. To be fair, a wizard as this level would impose similar problems but there is more documentation on wizards available on the internet.
so... a caster can generally cast a spell whenever he's got the actions to do so. That applies to Dispel Magic. Whether the spell does anything is a different story. Spell requirements have to be met and then a valid target/AoE chosen.
For class abilities look at the type; Su, Sp, Ex. That tells you how to treat it. A caster may not know that tidbit about a target and needs to roll know(local) for humanoids.
Commentary
There are lots of spells! It is highly probable that there's 1-3 spells that can twiddle with whatever condition or state you can name. Dispel Magic is probably one of the less effective spells in combat unless the target has SR and/or several active spells. Try Fireball, Bestow Curse, Glitterdust, persistent Ear-piercing Scream...
{AP pre-defined creatures, classes, and tactics.}
Commentary - of course:
Writers can only plan for generic & common situations (it's a product you sell to many types of players). The writers are writers first, system knowledge second and like many players most are not wizard build savvy. The class builds are usually "NPC standard" (not up to PC standards and certainly not min-maxed) with no/little equipment as that's a general Paizo style. It is rare to find a well built NPC arcane caster (like 2 in 10 years). Dispel Magic is a super generic anti-magic choice so the writer may not intend for the casters to be much help. I mean he could have just used Skald/Bard instead.
If you're in Pathfinder Battles and it is just added to the troop description rather than actual NPC casters... I'd just read below and create 3-4 tables for the spells for a group based on their caster type. Keep it simple.
So - twiddling with adventures (non-PFS). I think it's fair to swap around spells on a SplLvl by SplLvl basis BUT without information on the PCs you can not get too specific as then you are targeting them rather than adjusting or making up for generic writing 10 years out of date. So how much the NPCs know limits your tactical adjustments.
I'd make up 3 tables of spells and reasonable list of feats for each; 1)evoKer(blaster), 2)Diviner(with 50% blasting and balance a mix of spells), 3)Conjurer(with buffs & necromancy spells) to roll for each combat group to see what kind of wizard they have.
Each will need a list of prepared spells per CL plus one extra (for variance as NPCs are likely to just get off a couple rather than their whole list before they are toast) and their specific feats and equip. Their equip will be by NPC wealth & Lvl and by AP(as it may be less), something like; bandolier, 1-3 scroll with basic buffs(Prot G, Rst Enrg, Blur, Invis, Mir Img, Bear Con, Cat Dex, maybe Haste or Heroism), 1-2 first level wands at [4d6+2] chgs, alch fire[2], CLW potion[1-2], HWtr/UnHWtr, thunderstone, etc. Nothing too fancy.
