I've seen dozens of threads saying that undead are not immune to non-lethal, but also a lot of confusion on the unconscious part, but has there ever been any sort of official clarification from the staff/writers that could be pointed to for anyone who is also confused on this point?
Thank you
I've seen dozens of threads saying that undead are not immune to non-lethal,
True, unless the creature itself lists the immunity.
but also a lot of confusion on the unconscious part,
Probably true. I'm sure there are people making the argument that nonlethal damage won't destroy an undead even though it can bring them to 0 HP.
Myself, I am in the camp that since nonlethal damage can bring a creature to 0 HP... 0 HP is 0 HP. Undead are destroyed when they reach 0 HP. Doesn't matter if it is because of bludgeoning damage, fire damage, or nonlethal damage.
but has there ever been any sort of official clarification from the staff/writers that could be pointed to for anyone who is also confused on this point?
I'm not aware of any. Is there a particular reason that there needs to be one? Nonlethal damage isn't all that typical. And even if for some strange reason the entire party is loaded out entirely with nonlethal weapons and no spells, it is only a -2 penalty to remove the nonlethal trait from a Strike.
Once you have the undead unconscious at 0 HP, just club them while they are down to destroy them.
I don't feel like the OP is asking the full question here
It's the full question, it's related to any spells or kineticist abilities that do non-lethal and needing confirmation, a staff/writer would have been nice is all.
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I don't feel like the OP is asking the full question here
To rephrase more precisely...
We don't think this is the full context of why the question is being asked or why it needs an answer. Especially a formal answer backed by the authority of game developers.
So - to ask again - Is there a particular reason this needs an answer?
What scenario would it make a practical difference? Something that would significantly and noticeably change the outcome of the battle.
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I don't feel like the OP is asking the full question hereTo rephrase more precisely...
We don't think this is the full context of why the question is being asked or why it needs an answer. Especially a formal answer backed by the authority of game developers.
So - to ask again - Is there a particular reason this needs an answer?
What scenario would it make a practical difference? Something that would significantly and noticeably change the outcome of the battle.
Sorry for the confusion, specifically the situation is a potentially high undead adventure with a kineticist using Safe Elements which does non-lethal damage to avoid allies in AoE. Research has shown what others had said, that there is no immunity, but asking the forums if there was ever a clarification from a writer/staff. But maybe no clarification is required, as everyone says the same thing.
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OK. So even more specifically, a Kineticist is using Tremor to attack some skeletons, but there is an ally in the target area. So the Kineticist also uses Pacifying Infusion first to be able to exclude the ally from the effect. However, this also adds the Nonlethal trait to the Tremor damage.
If the GM is ruling that the skeletons take no damage, then they are forgetting that skeletons are not immune to nonlethal damage. The nonlethal Tremor damage should still cause HP loss.
If a skeleton reaches 0 HP as a result of this nonlethal damage, they are going to be either destroyed for reaching 0 HP and being undead, or will be knocked out because of nonlethal damage. I don't see any way that the skeleton would still be up and fighting.
So I am pretty OK with either ruling. It isn't going to affect the outcome of the battle. Worst case, it may cause some moral quandary drama RP when the party has to go around and bash the unconscious skeletons to destruction after winning the battle.
My gut reaction is to say that, since the only difference between lethal and nonlethal damage is what happens when you reach 0 (dying or unconscious) and undead are immune to one of those conditions, nonlethal damage should be able to work normally up until the point where it can't KO against the undead... but as is pointed out, the rules create a bit of a unusual scenario when this happens.
Ironically, the strict reading of the traits suggests that undead are actually unusually weak to nonlethal damage--despite being immune to unconsciousness, "undead die at 0" doesn't specify an exception for non-lethal damage. This is is sharp contrast to assumptions carried over from older editions, where undead couldn't be harmed.
On the other hand, should we decide that this interaction wasn't intended, it creates an awkward situation where a creature is conscious at 0 HP. Textually, the "undead dies even from nonlethal damage" is probably the most accurate, despite the fact that this means its now possible to exhaust an undead to destruction with phantom pain and fist attacks. Even so, ignoring that, I find two possibilities most attractive:
First, "creature conscious at 0 HP" is a state that cannot happen, and any creature conscious at 0 HP automatically recovers to 1HP as long as they are not somehow also Dying. This means you need to line up a final lethal shot in order to defeat them.
Second, "conscious doesn't mean mobile" and the undead, while conscious, is battered to the point where their unlife force can't animate their body to move but hasn't been extinguished yet. Perfect chance to take that -2 and land a lethal blow.
(or of course could go with Finoan and just remove the immunity to unconsciousness when 0 HP is the cause--PC undead already fall unconscious after all!)
In short, undead can be depleted with nonlethal damage. If the question of what happens when they hit 0 is inconclusive, just make sure your last blast is a lethal one. There should be plenty of opportunities to unleash your full power without accounting for extra actions spent avoiding allies standing in the way.
Thanks everyone for the clarifications and comments!
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Once you have the undead unconscious at 0 HPWhich can't happed as any undead I see are immune to unconscious.
So they are just destroyed normally unless also explicitly immune to non-lethal.
There's a couple that are not immune to unconscious, the most salient ones being vampires. :P
(But these one have special rules that render the point moot.)I think I have seen one or two non-vampires that weren't immune either, but I can't remember which.