I noticed something odd today, and I was wondering about opinions. Flaming Sphere talks a lot about where the sphere can go, but not where it can start. Can I start the flaming sphere on enemies? If so, does it immediately do damage or does it need to be moved first?
Quote:
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect 5-ft.-diameter sphere
Duration 1 round/level
Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance yes
A burning globe of fire rolls in whichever direction you point and burns those it strikes. It moves 30 feet per round. As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target. If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall. It ignites flammable substances it touches and illuminates the same area as a torch would.
The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns. It can be extinguished by any means that would put out a normal fire of its size. The surface of the sphere has a spongy, yielding consistency and so does not cause damage except by its flame. It cannot push aside unwilling creatures or batter down large obstacles. A flaming sphere winks out if it exceeds the spell's range.
The spell description only talks about moving it around but the spell basics assume you could put it in an enemy's square and at that point (from the description) it would stop moving for the round, call for a save and do damage(if any).
I noticed something odd today, and I was wondering about opinions. Flaming Sphere talks a lot about where the sphere can go, but not where it can start. Can I start the flaming sphere on enemies? If so, does it immediately do damage or does it need to be moved first?
First, unlike a Conjuration spell, which has rules on where creatures and objects can appear, an Evocation spell, like flaming sphere, doesn't have such stated rules. Still, you need to use some common sense and make a judgement. Just because it doesn't say you can't have it appear inside a creature, now that means you can cast a flaming sphere inside a Huge creature or inside a gelatinous cube. I wouldn't allow it, even though there's a ruling for one school of spells and not another.
Would I let it be conjured on top of a specific creature? Possibly. Not just talking about a prone or unconscious creature (which I would), but one that was like a puddle or something, like some oozes or jellies or a swarm, then yes.
In that case-by-case instance, I would probably rule like Azothath that it makes its 'attack' (creature in that square makes a save) and it can't move that round. I am not normally an advocate for it, because I feel it normally requires a move action from its caster to make an 'attack' and allowing a freebie isn't my normal Modus Operandi, but in such a specific case where I did let it appear in a creature's square, then I would allow it. Similarly, I would rule that the wizard could 'park' it and deal continuous damage on a creature that was unconscious or unable to move from it without needing a move action each round to try and burn the unmoving creature.
Otherwise, in most normal cases, I wouldn't let it appear in an occupied space, spongy form or not. That's my thought on it.
"Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)" You can have the sphere appear in any location to which you have LOS and LOE within that range.
So, you can't make it appear inside a creature or in a location you don't see.
It is not a creature, so it can share a square with a creature and appear in that square. It will strike the creature and, as it stops moving when it strikes one, it will stop moving for the round and deal damage.
Just because it doesn't say you can't have it appear inside a creature, now that means you can cast a flaming sphere inside a Huge creature or inside a gelatinous cube. I wouldn't allow it, even though there's a ruling for one school of spells and not another.
Diego Rossi wrote:
So, you can't make it appear inside a creature or in a location you don't see.
Creatures don't block line of effect and you can see through a gelatinous cube by its own mechanics, so doesn't that mean you *could* put a flaming sphere inside a gelatinous cube (if all of its squares weren't boarder squares as a large creature anyway)?
putting something in a gelatinous cube (other than it absorbing/eating it) has special rules from the drow/nevermindwinter knights in 3.5. just saying, LoL
Just because it doesn't say you can't have it appear inside a creature, now that means you can cast a flaming sphere inside a Huge creature or inside a gelatinous cube. I wouldn't allow it, even though there's a ruling for one school of spells and not another.
Diego Rossi wrote:
So, you can't make it appear inside a creature or in a location you don't see.
Creatures don't block line of effect and you can see through a gelatinous cube by its own mechanics, so doesn't that mean you *could* put a flaming sphere inside a gelatinous cube (if all of its squares weren't boarder squares as a large creature anyway)?
Can you explain how you can both have LOE and LOS to the inside of a creature without being inside it?
CRB wrote:
Line of Effect: A line of effect is a straight, unblocked path that indicates what a spell can affect. A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier. It’s like line of sight for ranged weapons, except that it’s not blocked by fog, darkness, and other factors that limit normal sight.
Flesh/wood/metal etc. are solid barriers. All my insides are protected by a solid barrier.
An incorporeal creature can be an exception to that, but it needs to be transparent too to center a spell inside it.
Not necessarily responding to anyone, just sharing some more thoughts. Just like in most things, it depends. It depends on the creature, it depends on the spell, it depends on how a GM rules (ultimately).
Examples Space Saver:
-----------------------------------------
For instance, a gelatinous cube is a special creature that does fill its space. Unlike a 6-tall person, or a 5-foot wide spider, the cube fills its space. Making it like total cover, or at least for purposes of spells, there isn't at least a 1-foot square opening past it. A Large gelatinous cube in a 10-foot hallway will block passage and cover and effect (unless the effect legitimately passes through creatures, but I'll go into that in a moment). Similar to a Living Wall. You can't shoot a target past it unless the attack passes through the intervening barrier.
You could have an spell effect appear in a creature if there was a specific creature that allowed it. Like some Living Cage or animated cage, where it captured people or had space inside. Then I see no problem having a flaming sphere or even a creature appearing in that space inside the creature, and thus in its space (whether it has swallow whole or not). But it will depend on the specific creature and the specific spell. I wouldn't allow a bigger creature than could fit inside it to be put inside it.
Similar to how snakes can be Large or Huge and still be fairly ruled that they can fit through a 1-foot or even 2-foot or so pipe or opening even if they don't have compression, just because it makes sense. Sure, they're Large or Huge and take up 10x10 or 15x15 tactically, but we also know they aren't a concentrated mass like most (non-serpent) creatures, and if they have heads and bodies smaller than the circumference of the entry, they can go through it, possibly without any squeezing penalties, depending on the situation.
We have rules for aiming some spells through narrow openings, like fireball. If the caster can see through an arrow slit, I'd let them cast flaming sphere centered on a space on the other side. If they cast fireball, they'd have to make an attack to get it to the same location, even though fireball doesn't require an attack roll. It all depends.
If someone is engulfed in a gelatinous cube and a fireball goes off next to them, I can rule the engulfed creature to be 'shielded', even if the spread is big enough to go around the cube and hit creatures behind it which have cover from the caster. But I would rule a lightning bolt would hit both the cube and affect the engulfed creature. I'd probably have it continue on past to any creature beyond, even if there was no line of effect or line of sight to them (G. cubes being transparent notwithstanding, it could be a living wall that isn't). Another GM can rule differently.
------------------------------------
The reason I don't allow a flaming sphere to be placed in an occupied space (meaning in a normal situation, not a non-standard anatomy creature or unconscious target), is because I can plainly see that the spell creates a physical object of substance. A 5-foot diameter spongy mass. Spongy and malleable or not, I cannot in good conscience say it just forms either around or in a space occupied by another creature (or object that would allow it. Ie. If the room is 8-feet high, and there's a 4-foot high table in that space, I am not allowing it be cast there, it can't fit over or under the table. Have it appear somewhere also and roll into it and try and burn or damage it's way past (it can't push things away, only roll over obstacles). The fact that it can roll into a creature's space and share it, is not the same as saying it can be created there. Just like you can't summon a creature into an an occupied space, even if one or both of them had swarm-fighting or a similar ability that let them choose to share spaces. They'd have to be placed and then move into such a position. It just depends on the spell or the creature.
I would have no issue if flaming sphere was literally a ball of flame or heat or fiery gas. The issue is that the specific spell creates a physical object of mass and form and shape (even if that form can't push aside creatures or obstacles). Similarly, it's identical in almost all ways to aqueous orb, with the only exception being one is Evocation and one is Conjuration (because water isn't an energy type) and the orb doesn't stop when it enters a creature's space. But despite water being undeniably fluid and permeable and able to be passed through, it can't form in a creature's space. The fact that flaming sphere is Evocation is secondary to the fact that it forms a solid (though spongy) mass, because there's nothing that says that mass is permeable or able to be pushed through (otherwise it would squeeze between or through barriers, and there's no indication of that). I would be more inclined to allow aqueous orb to form in a creature's space than flaming sphere despite Conjuration having more stringent restriction on summons and creations.
in a practical manner; a) the spell leaves the door open to some interpretation, b) move action expended or not on the initial round, c) it is not one of the better spells. Thus it is not a big deal either way.
