Certain spells you need a move action to direct a spell such as Flaming Sphere.
Since it says "The sphere moves as long as you actively direct it (a move action for you); otherwise, it merely stays at rest and burns.", does this imply a caster can spend two move actions to move it up to 60 feet in one round?
A move actions is a specific type of action. You can use it to move, but it can also be used for other things. The spell states you use a move action to direct the spell. That does not make directing the spell a move.
Didn't see Azothat's reply, so I guess since it just says only 30 feet per round it doesn't matter how many move actions you have it's bound by the spell's description
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Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.
Humans have a movement speed of 30' per round but can move twice (for a total of 60'). So the spell's movement speed/rate isn't necessarily the limiting factor.
A move actions is a specific type of action. You can use it to move, but it can also be used for other things. The spell states you use a move action to direct the spell. That does not make directing the spell a move.
True enough, but directing the spell is a move action.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action.
So yes, you can move it twice.
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Humans have a movement speed of 30' per round but can move twice (for a total of 60'). So the spell's movement speed/rate isn't necessarily the limiting factor.Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.
Humans have a basic speed of 30', and a Flaming sphere moves 30 feet per round.. They are two different statements.
If you use two move actions in a round (sometimes called a “double move” action), you can move up to double your speed.
The Flaming sphere doesn't have a speed at all. It has a distance it can move in a round.
Check the rest of that line too:
As part of this movement, it can ascend or jump up to 30 feet to strike a target.(1) If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round(2) and deals 3d6 points of fire damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates that damage. A flaming sphere rolls over barriers less than 4 feet tall.
(1) The sphere moves 30' even if it is vertical movement. Normally going up reduces your movement.
(2) The spare stops moving if it enters a creature's space. Again, not what normal movements do. With normal movement, you can't stop in another creature's square.|
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Humans have a basic speed of 30', and a Flaming sphere moves 30 feet per round.. They are two different statements.Humans have a movement speed of 30' per round but can move twice (for a total of 60'). So the spell's movement speed/rate isn't necessarily the limiting factor.Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.
You’re trying to parse the language way too fine. You are trying to draw a distinction between
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round
And
It moves 30 feet per round
Saying “a movement speed per round is different than a movement per round” isn’t supported in the rules and in this particular case would lead to the conclusion that flaming sphere can only be moved once per round but aggressive thundercloud can be moved twice in a round because “it has a fly speed of 20 feet.”
A move action actually has two meaning in the game. The first is the type of action (Standard, Move, Full Round, Swift and Free), the second is the action of moving. Move actions include move, control a frightened mount, direct or redirect an active spell, draw a weapon, load a hand crossbow or light crossbow, and other actions. A double move is allowed, but it is taking two actions of moving. This is a case of the rules explicitly allowing you to move twice, not a general rule.
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For the people who think that the Sphere can move two times, how do you think that works for dealing damage?
Does the Sphere move once, enter a creature square, stop, deal damage, then back up and re-enter the square, dealing damage again?
or
Does it move twice and deal damage only at the end of all of its moves?
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For the people who think that the Sphere can move two times, how do you think that works for dealing damage?
Does the Sphere move once, enter a creature square, stop, deal damage, then back up and re-enter the square, dealing damage again?
or
Does it move twice and deal damage only at the end of all of its moves?
If it enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round. . .
If it enters the space of a creature it stops for the round. It can't move any farther that round.
The only reason you would use two move actions to move the sphere in the same round is if you need to move it more than 30'. And, very importantly, you're giving up your standard action to make that second move.
I see the direction that one can interpret as either/or:
1) Spell is distinctly only said movement per round and not per move action
OR
2) Spell moves a certain distance based on a move action. Therefore the caster can take two move actions.
Humans have a basic speed of 30', and a Flaming sphere moves 30 feet per round.. They are two different statements.Humans have a movement speed of 30' per round but can move twice (for a total of 60'). So the spell's movement speed/rate isn't necessarily the limiting factor.Speed
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a round and still do something, such as attack or cast a spell.You’re trying to parse the language way too fine. You are trying to draw a distinction between
Your speed tells you how far you can move in a roundAnd
It moves 30 feet per roundSaying “a movement speed per round is different than a movement per round” isn’t supported in the rules and in this particular case would lead to the conclusion that flaming sphere can only be moved once per round but aggressive thundercloud can be moved twice in a round because “it has a fly speed of 20 feet.”
Diego Rossi is correct. It is specifically giving you a hard limit.
You use this action to make the spell effect move X feet per round.
"Per round" is a completely different thing than "per move action".
If they wanted you to move it multiple times per round it would have said you can move the sphere 30 feet each time you use a move action.
Is it game breaking to allow it to work per move action? Likely not outside of some corner case, but what's game breaking and what the rules actually are, are two different things.
Some abilities are action based, and some are round based. The sphere is round based.
You can't use the movement speed of a creature to counter Ross's argument because movement speed isn't round based, it's action based.
If you get more move or standard actions you get more chances to move.
The hard limit is generally on the actions you have.
As an example if you have the ability to make additional move actions, and you have 30 feet of movement you can move 90 feet because there is no limit on how far you can move in a round. There is only a limit on actions you can use to move.
An example of this is the choker. They can move 30 additional feet because they get an extra move action. There is also a shirt that grants an additional move action.
Another example is a creature that gets 2 full round actions.
It can move 4 times it's move speed in one round because it gets 2 turns in the same round. This would allow it to double move twice or withdraw twice in the same round.
Speed is specifically a creature stat. The spell is question doesn't have a speed. It has a distance it is allowed to move, which is 30 feet per round in this case.
The issue here is a confusion of the distance limits on an ability with movement speed for a creature. Barring certain situations most things that are not creatures don't have speeds, and yes I'm aware of aggressive thundercloud.
The two are not the same.
As for aggressive thundercould as written you could move it twice in a round as long as it hasn't entered the same space as another creature, even though I don't know if that was the intent because it has a move speed, and is not limited by any "per round" language barring contact with a creature.
You can argue that flaming sphere was badly written, however unless you have precedence from other rules or Paizo is nice enough to update PF 1 FAQ's* there really is no way to prove they just worded it incorrectly.
*PS: We all know the PF1 FAQ is toast.
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(lots)
The original PF1 designers (particularly Sean K. Reynolds) had a lot to say about how English is a fluid language and people would try to read way more into the text than was actually written or intended. My favorite is Sean's "if it walks like a duck" post. I really suggest everyone read it. Here's part of that post:
Sometimes rules aren't going to have the exact same name or wording.
* Part of that is because things are designed by different people and one prefers one wording to another.
* Part is because we don't want similar chunks of text near each other to be identical, because that's an awkward read and is boring.Note that the descriptions for flaming and frost aren't exactly identical, even though they work basically the same way. And would you really want the cleric class ability to be written as "channel energy (positive)" or "channel energy (negative)"? And the paladin ability as "channel energy (positive)"? And the necromancer ability "channel energy (positive, Turn Undead only)" or "channel energy (negative, Command Undead only)"? I mean, c'mon, try using that in a sentence. :/
* Part is because between book A and book B we've decided a better way to phrase a rule so it's clear to more people, so B's rule looks or is named just a little different than A's rule.
* Part is because English is a very flexible language, and whether you say "Sean kissed Jodi on their first date" or "Jodi was kissed by Sean on their first date," you should understand there was a kiss.
* Part of it is we have to wrap some text around a piece of art or make sure that a paragraph ends at the bottom of a page so a new header can start at the top, so we alter a word or two so the lines break differently. Not important words like "as a cleric of your level," but stuff that keeps the same intent. A paladin's ability could have been written as "Channel Energy: You channel energy as a cleric of your level. Paladins always channel positive energy, never negative energy, etc. etc." but it's cleaner to present it the way it is, rather than presenting negative channeling as a possible option for the paladin and then taking it away in the next sentence.
* And part of it is sometimes we make mistakes and don't write things as clearly as we should, or forget some obscure combination in this very complex game, or an author use a pre-errata wording of an ability when writing a new ability.
He also talks about how GMs aren't robots and other very good insights. But the most important takeaway is that if you are trying to differentiate between two things that are worded nearly identically (like the movement of flaming sphere and aggressive thundercloud) you shouldn't be.
In this particular case we can argue until we are blue in the face about whether aggressive thundercloud "is because between book A and book B we've decided a better way to phrase a rule so it's clear to more people" or not. And certainly the language can be parsed to argue that "your speed tells you how far you can move in a round" and "it moves 30' in a round" are somehow different things.
There's absolutely no rule that saying "movement speed" is different from saying "moves X in a round." I can't stop a GM from deciding that they are different.