Haven't had the chance to try out the former yet, so I'm curious about how it fares in actual play vs Opportune Backstab.
To me it looks like an interesting sidegrade. Higher level, less consistency and more feat investment for all the defensive benefits looks like a fair trade-off.
I think it starts being particularly interesting for certain builds that plan to put more damage in the Rogue's turn and skip Preparation, like FoB or Triggerbrand Salvo rogues. Lets them be more mobile outside of their turn and should make not ending turn adjacent to an enemy barely an inconvenience (maybe even desireable).
If you tried it, did you get the strike off more or less than you expected? Did you feel like the defensive aspects of the feat chain outweights the offensive drawbacks when compared to the alternative? How did you feel about skipping/delaying debilitations or other level 10 feats for it?
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It's less consistent because you're relying on the enemy acting a certain way as opposed to your party doing something very common with a high rate of success. The nimble feats don't do anything if the enemy doesn't target you with an attack or uses a non-reflex AoE or a reflex AoE that simply excludes you.
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I agree Opportune Backstab is more consistent than Nimble Strike because you can easily combine with your allies (or even a companion) to more frequently trigger the reaction and also is cheaper to get because you don't need to get 2 feats as "tax" to get it.
But the Nimble Strike pass different message to the enemy/GM. While Opportune Backstab attracts attention to you (soft-aggro) showing to your target that "every time that some ally of this creature hits me this creature take advantage of the gap to Strike me. This creature is dangerous, maybe is better to primary target it to prevent these reactions" while the Nimble Strike pass the opposite message that "every time that I Strike this creature it not only tries to avoid the Strike as also Strike back! Maybe is better to focus in another creature".
OK this will depend of how your GM plays and interpret the enemies but these abilities create opposite stimuli for your GM.
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Depends on party composition and tactics. If you have 2 other melee allies and you are up against a major combatant then Opportune Backstab is more reliable. If you are more often skirmishing without much support as your allies are erratic then Nimble Strike is clearly better. It also might be better against a horde.
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I’ve not seen Nimble Strike in action, so I’m not sure. However, if all you care about is the extra attack, then I think I will still end up preferring Opportune Backstab. Nimble Strike requires a 10th, 8th, and 1st level feat. Yes, those other feats do something, so you are getting more than just the attack from taking them.
Give the Opportune Backstab Rogue Gang Up, though, and if they are in position to get an Opportune Backstab, then they are also making the opponent off-guard to their allies in melee. Which means their allies are more likely to hit. Which means Opportune Backstab is more likely to trigger.
A Nimble Strike Rogue can benefit from Gang Up also, but it doesn’t make it more likely that Nimble Strike will happen.
It will, of course, depend on circumstances and party composition. If you’re fighting a single boss, they just stop attacking you if you’re using Nimble Strike. If you are fighting one on one a lot, you’ll get more use out of Ninble Strike. But an enemy can’t control who attacks it. And while it’s off guard, there a pretty good chance that someone is going to hit it. Worst case, the enemy starts wasting actions to move away from you, which is still a win.
I’ve found Opportune Backstab to trigger far more often than reactions from other classes, like Reactive Strike or Paladin’s Retributive Strike (or any of the Champion reactions). You really only need 1 other melee character to make it work.
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But the Nimble Strike pass different message to the enemy/GM. While Opportune Backstab attracts attention to you (soft-aggro) showing to your target that "every time that some ally of this creature hits me this creature take advantage of the gap to Strike me. This creature is dangerous, maybe is better to primary target it to prevent these reactions" while the Nimble Strike pass the opposite message that "every time that I Strike this creature it not only tries to avoid the Strike as also Strike back! Maybe is better to focus in another creature".This is why I think it looks best for Rogues that plan to do most of their damage on their turn instead of relying on Preparation. It not only boosts your DPR, it makes it so an enemy that strides towards you can only attempt to hit you once in most cases. If enemies don't target you, you are free to do your thing, if they do, they are punished for it.
A Nimble Strike Rogue can benefit from Gang Up also, but it doesn’t make it more likely that Nimble Strike will happen.
Nimble Strike helps you stay alive, though. A common issue I've seen Opportune Backstab Rogues have is that they tend to fall down rather quick in lots of encounters. Doing lots of damage, being squishier and needing to stay adjacent to enemies does that. Feat is bonkers, but it has a few downsides.
So Gang Up may not help Nimble Strike proc more often, but Nimble Strike does make Gang Up be relevant for more rounds.
Roquepo, you've touched on why I think Rogues deserve such a powerful feat like Opportune Backstab; because as the lowest-defense martial they're at greater risk when they stand toe-to-toe. Opportune Backstab balances that with a good (potential) reward.
Heck, it's such a good feat it could earn its 16th level slot for many other martials w/ MCD Rogue (especially those with a poor selection of Reactions).
I'd prefer a skirmishing Rogue by default, but OB's so good that I lean toward Rogues that boost their defense to survive to use it. Nimble Strike re-balances skirmishing, and adds good defense/defensive positioning too so IMO it's better for a Rogue in a white room, but it's also quite costly (unless already attracted to the other feats). Yet as usual, we don't play in a white room so party composition & enemy composition alter the value of both.
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A Nimble Strike Rogue can benefit from Gang Up also, but it doesn’t make it more likely that Nimble Strike will happen.Nimble Strike helps you stay alive, though. A common issue I've seen Opportune Backstab Rogues have is that they tend to fall down rather quick in lots of encounters. Doing lots of damage, being squishier and needing to stay adjacent to enemies does that. Feat is bonkers, but it has a few downsides.
So Gang Up may not help Nimble Strike proc more often, but Nimble Strike does make Gang Up be relevant for more rounds.
Which is why I prefaced all of that with if all you care about is the extra attack. If you have already gone down the Nimble Dodge, Nimble Roll path, you may as well stick with Nimble Strike. Encouraging enemies not to attack you is good in that situation.
But Nimble Roll partially keeps you alive by letting you move away to avoid subsequent attacks. At which point you may not be providing the Gang Up bonus anymore.
Just build a sturdier Rogue. :)
Nimble Strike looks interesting. Is this is a Remaster ability? I don't recall it as a rogue option.
A Nimble Strike Rogue can benefit from Gang Up also, but it doesn’t make it more likely that Nimble Strike will happen.Nimble Strike helps you stay alive, though. A common issue I've seen Opportune Backstab Rogues have is that they tend to fall down rather quick in lots of encounters. Doing lots of damage, being squishier and needing to stay adjacent to enemies does that. Feat is bonkers, but it has a few downsides.
So Gang Up may not help Nimble Strike proc more often, but Nimble Strike does make Gang Up be relevant for more rounds.
Which is why I prefaced all of that with if all you care about is the extra attack. If you have already gone down the Nimble Dodge, Nimble Roll path, you may as well stick with Nimble Strike. Encouraging enemies not to attack you is good in that situation.
But Nimble Roll partially keeps you alive by letting you move away to avoid subsequent attacks. At which point you may not be providing the Gang Up bonus anymore.
Just build a sturdier Rogue. :)
Or play as ruffian using a Gnome Flickmace.
Rogues are no more a fragile frontlines as they used to be in PF1/D&D. The AC difference between a light armor and a heavy armor is not that big and you can make a pretty resistant rogue selecting ruffian racket able to even use a heavy armor with Sentinel Dedication and even using a shield to increase your AC with your 3rd action without need to use Nimble Dodge and investing in Con once you don't need to invest into Dex with this build.
Nimble Strike looks interesting. Is this is a Remaster ability? I don't recall it as a rogue option.
Yes it's a remaster feat. Once that AoN still not updated I will put the description from Foundry here:
You're cunning enough to find an opening in an opponent's attack. When you use your Nimble Dodge reaction, you can make a melee Strike against the triggering creature. This Strike doesn't count toward your multiple attack penalty, and your multiple attack penalty doesn't apply to this Strike. If you use the Nimble Roll feat, you can make this Strike at any point during your roll
Thanks for the info, YuriP. Interesting feat. An option for slightly different rogue builds. I like it.
Honestly, these are perfect 10th level feats. Both are really strong, but which is better will vary based on your party and tactics. I think most parties will prefer Opportune Backstab but Nimble is nice for the lone wolf rogue.
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Honestly, these are perfect 10th level feats. Both are really strong, but which is better will vary based on your party and tactics. I think most parties will prefer Opportune Backstab but Nimble is nice for the lone wolf rogue.
Opportune Backstab is 8th, not 10th. Which actually matters more than people have mentioned here, not just because it means Oppotunr Backstab comes online earlier but because Nimble Strike is competing with all the improved Debilitation feats as well.
So not only does getting Nimble Strike have a higher feat cost due to prerequisites, it also comes later and it means delaying some really powerful options, which is why I think Opportune Backstab wins out handily most of the time.
I can't see too many folks using Nimble Strike. Rogue is super powerful using gang up, always working with another melee, and ensuring they get their sneak attack and debilitations. Anything that doesn't do this is a low value feat you're doing just for fun. The rogue play-style is fairly simple and super effective.
Nimble Strike at least provides an option for something different if you feel like doing it.
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I can't see too many folks using Nimble Strike. Rogue is super powerful using gang up, always working with another melee, and ensuring they get their sneak attack and debilitations. Anything that doesn't do this is a low value feat you're doing just for fun. The rogue play-style is fairly simple and super effective.
Nimble Strike at least provides an option for something different if you feel like doing it.
Maybe. The one thing the rogue suffers from is that she is BOTH a little fragile for a martial AND a high value target (take him down and the groups damage goes down considerably. From the other sides point of view Gang Up HURTS).
One hard to quantify advantage of Nimble Strike is that it makes striking the rogue less attractive, which translates to more staying power.
That is going to vary HUGELY with the GM and with the bad guys you're facing and so is REALLY hard to quantify. But it IS going to be a factor at least some of the time.
I can't see too many folks using Nimble Strike. Rogue is super powerful using gang up, always working with another melee, and ensuring they get their sneak attack and debilitations. Anything that doesn't do this is a low value feat you're doing just for fun. The rogue play-style is fairly simple and super effective.
Nimble Strike at least provides an option for something different if you feel like doing it.
Maybe. The one thing the rogue suffers from is that she is BOTH a little fragile for a martial AND a high value target (take him down and the groups damage goes down considerably. From the other sides point of view Gang Up HURTS).
One hard to quantify advantage of Nimble Strike is that it makes striking the rogue less attractive, which translates to more staying power.
That is going to vary HUGELY with the GM and with the bad guys you're facing and so is REALLY hard to quantify. But it IS going to be a factor at least some of the time.
Anything in the control of the DM is inherently less useful than something the part can control.
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Anything in the control of the DM is inherently less useful than something the part can control.
In general, absolutely.
But you're probably playing with a GM that you know and you know (in general) how they'll react to Nimble Strike. I've played with GMs that I most certainly would NOT take it, I've played with GMs where it would be very valuable
Anything in the control of the DM is inherently less useful than something the part can control.I can't see too many folks using Nimble Strike. Rogue is super powerful using gang up, always working with another melee, and ensuring they get their sneak attack and debilitations. Anything that doesn't do this is a low value feat you're doing just for fun. The rogue play-style is fairly simple and super effective.
Nimble Strike at least provides an option for something different if you feel like doing it.
Maybe. The one thing the rogue suffers from is that she is BOTH a little fragile for a martial AND a high value target (take him down and the groups damage goes down considerably. From the other sides point of view Gang Up HURTS).
One hard to quantify advantage of Nimble Strike is that it makes striking the rogue less attractive, which translates to more staying power.
That is going to vary HUGELY with the GM and with the bad guys you're facing and so is REALLY hard to quantify. But it IS going to be a factor at least some of the time.
If you can make yourself enough of a threat without that extra strike, any GM would have to go through you. It is not as universal as Opportune Backstab is (which always triggers as long as you have a martial buddy with you).
Basically, I don't think it is something to pick for the damage, but so monsters are heavily punished for attacking you. As I said early, if you are going for a flourish strike other than Preparation, it starts looking really enticing since you are putting most of your damage in your turn instead of on your reactions.
But yes, I agree with those that think Opportune Backstab might be generally better. Will probably roll a character with Nimble Strike whenever I can to see it in practice.
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Again, if you’re already going Nimble Dodge and Nimble Roll, then Nimble Strike is a great and welcome addition to that chain. At that point you’re devoting 3 of your 6 class feats to that chain. You may as well build for making it work.
With Opportune Backstab, you aren’t really building for that feat. It’s just a great addition to any melee build.
Anything in the control of the DM is inherently less useful than something the part can control.
In general, absolutely.
But you're probably playing with a GM that you know and you know (in general) how they'll react to Nimble Strike. I've played with GMs that I most certainly would NOT take it, I've played with GMs where it would be very valuable
Players more than the GM.
I can't see many groups not having a martial for a rogue to key off of. If that group did not coordinate with the rogue, it might make playing the rogue very unpleasant. Nimble Strike with no sneak attack would not greatly improve that.
To me it seems like one of those abilities you would either stack with opportune backstab to improve reaction options or use because you wanted to do something different.
I made a rogue archer because I wanted to see if I could make it work. It did not come online consistently until I obtained Parting Shot and Precise Debilitations without assistance from a tripping martial. I did use Feint at times early on, but an action economy rogue archer took a bit to do well. Once it came online, it was pretty fun from the last half of the levels.
Maybe someone could build around Nimble Strike into something interesting for fun. This offers that option. It may not be as effective as the clear Gang Up with Opportune Backstab path, but may be more fun for the player.
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It’s a good point that some of the attacks you get from Nimble Strike will be without sneak attack, even if you also have Gang Up. While if you have Gang Up, there are only a few situations where the attack you get from Opportune Backstab won’t have sneak. Things that are immune to precision, or flanking, or have Deny Advantage and are at least your level.
I don’t see many builds having both Nimble Strike and Opportune Backstab. You’d need to be 12th level, as Nimble Roll and Opportune Backstab are both 8th level feats. So, you’re not only giving up a 10th level debilitation, but also a 12th level one or a different 12th level feat. For the handful of rounds when one of the two would trigger, but not both. That doesn’t seem worthwhile.
I can't see many groups not having a martial for a rogue to key off of. If that group did not coordinate with the rogue, it might make playing the rogue very unpleasant. Nimble Strike with no sneak attack would not greatly improve that.
I see the the main use case being an independent skirmisher or ranged attacker. Yes it might be a better choice if your group is terrible at coordination. Many players are pretty random in their coordination.
I made a rogue archer because I wanted to see if I could make it work. It did not come online consistently until I obtained Parting Shot and Precise Debilitations without assistance from a tripping martial. I did use Feint at times early on, but an action economy rogue archer took a bit to do well. Once it came online, it was pretty fun from the last half of the levels.
In order to play a ranged Rogue you have to have a couple of methods of getting sneak attack from range. So Intimidation plus Dread Striker, MasterMind Racket, an ally who likes to prone or grapple or is otherwise helpful. Somewhere down that road. To do a ranged Rogue with Nimble Strike then you probably want a d6 finese natural attack, say a Tengu's beak.
Maybe someone could build around Nimble Strike into something interesting for fun. This offers that option. It may not be as effective as the clear Gang Up with Opportune Backstab path, but may be more fun for the player.
The bonus to your AC and Reflex saves is nice too.
I'm just happy it is in the same ball park.
I'd personally consider Nimble Strike if I'm in a party with only a single other martial on top of my Rogue. Rogue is a strong class if you have many martials in the party, but otherwise it makes the party hyper fragile. With Nimble Strike, your Rogue discourages attacks on themselves and even if the other martial goes down it gives the Rogue a nice attacking power (the extra attack compensates the lack of Sneak Attack).
Anyway, Gang Up and Opportune Backstab are so strong they partly imbalances the whole class.
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What interests me more than how this fits for Rogue is how it will fit for Swashbuckler, assuming it’s added there in Player Core 2. It’s a better Opportune Riposte, but the investment for a Swashbuckler is steep, as it competes with Derring Do, some of the finishers, and the always on AC stances. Eating up the 1st, 8th, and 10th level feats on that class is rough. But not having to rely on a crit fail to do a Swashbuckler thing would be nice.
I’m hoping for larger changes for that class (maybe wishful thinking), but as is, I think it would be tough to build for Nimble Strike, given everything you’d have to give up, and Opportune Riposte being free. Honestly, they should just give Swashbuckler a feat in this level range that makes Opportune Riposte work without the need to be critically missed first, but also without all the prerequisites that Nimble Strike has.